Tank dps harrasment

[akaneakki]

Also, I know they weren't replying just to brag, I'm just saying that it could sound that way.

Yes, they could word themselves different, that I agree on. I'm all up for people playing or trying better each time. I can't really count how many times you could do a fight with just 7 people because the last one is doing so low, it barely does a margin. I mean I'm not expecting full amazing play, but I expect somewhat decent play. Why does people expect me to play great when they can't even do it themselves.

[Xerek]

FFLogs should be opt-in, not opt-out. Nobody should have access without concent. For people using it for personal improvement, great. You only need your stats for that.

However, that won't help much. In cases where people check logs, if they see your info hidden, they'll assume the worst, and/or ask you to unhide it. FFLogs could instead not display hidden as hidden, but rather as no available logs. If they did, people might just interpret that as hidden or no clears and still assume the worst. You could ask FFLogs to only store the data of the person uploading, but then you lose the ability to compare and replay, rendering it useless anyway.

So, basically, there is no middle ground. Just a matter of keeping things as-is, or scrapping FFLogs outright. Comes down to a question of whether it does more harm or good.

[Miste]

In cases where people check logs, if they see your info hidden, they'll assume the worst, and/or ask you to unhide it. FFLogs could instead not display hidden as hidden, but rather as no available logs. If they did, people might just interpret that as hidden or no clears and still assume the worst.

If someone assumes the worst over it and doesn't even give you a chance then why would you want to play with someone like that anyway? Seems to me they would be doing you a favour.

[AxlStream]

This whole thread about FFLogs being a threat is funny enough but you know it's only taken seriously in a Savage/Ultimate context right? If all you do are your Alliance raids, EX roulettes, EX primals, you got nothing to worry about really. I wonder if all the animosity towards it stems from people actually knowing they could do more but make no effort to actually do more. So they get paranoid and blame logs on fights nobody even care about in a serious environment.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

However, that won't help much. In cases where people check logs, if they see your info hidden, they'll assume the worst, and/or ask you to unhide it. FFLogs could instead not display hidden as hidden, but rather as no available logs. If they did, people might just interpret that as hidden or no clears and still assume the worst. You could ask FFLogs to only store the data of the person uploading, but then you lose the ability to compare and replay, rendering it useless anyway.

This wouldn't change anything except leading to people getting kicked after a few runs since now the only way to tell would be bringing them along and parsing. No matter what solution you attempt, you cannot force people to play with others. Better players don't necessarily want to play with people several steps below their skill level, and that is entirely within their prerogative.

You know what else would help? Having some accountability. Time and again I see people whine over how detriment and "toxic" FFlogs are; that the mere idea someone is able to objective analysis your performance when in a group setting is awful. What if, you got better? There will always be some asshat who loses their mind or a simple mistake or two but actually good players don't care nearly to the extent their presumed to. They do care about having their time wasted.

[Xerek]

I have a feeling people misread my last post. I was simply pointing out that there is nothing that could be changed about FFLogs, that the arguement should simply be does it do more harm then good. I quite intentionally gave no opinion on that, yet it seems some people still rushed to judgement as if I did.

[MeridaQ]

After reading through this I asked a bunch of friends and no one has ever been in parties where people were kicked because of parsing. The closest I have seen is in a dungeon a dps was complaining about how slow it was and that the other dps was crap. I was the tank I told them to stop and then gave them both advice on rotation. The non-complaining dps was doing more damage even before the advice. From my experience all this fear seems unwarranted sure it sometimes happens. I have been playing since Titan Ex was current, I raid and pug often savages and extremes. The only time I hear about parser abuse is on the forum. If it is so uncommon deal with it then and there, this is no different than any abuse.If you want to use FFlogs to better yourself it is there to be used. That is how I improve, I study better players rotations and learn from them. I do it for personal improvement not to show off to other people in my community or belittle anyone.

TLDR: Don't worry so much about if someone is parsing or if you are being judged on said parses. Most people don't care they are focusing on improving themselves.

[Taika]

TLDR: Don't worry so much about if someone is parsing or if you are being judged on said parses. Most people don't care they are focusing on improving themselves.

Exactly. It's like the people on this thread have created some kind of a parser/FFlogs boogeyman that's out there to kick people from groups and preventing them from joining them in the first place, but in reality it's extremely rare that happens.

Today I actually used FFlogs when we were trying to get our last FC member his OS4 clear. He had been trying it for the whole weekend and 8 hours only today, so we decided to skip Ultimate and use our event time to help him instead. We were only missing 2 people so whenever someone joined, I checked their logs and also asked them how experienced they were with the fight. On the first round we didn't exclude anyone (although we ended up kicking a person for killing us 3 or 4 times in GCO with allagan field). On second round, we had a DD join and when I checked them, I noticed they only had 1 kill for each OS1-OS3, really low rank in all. So I asked how experienced they were with the fight, if there was a reason they had so few kills, and if they had a clue about their normal DPS in the fight. Instead of answering my questions, the guy said "sorry, I gtg, something came up irl". Now it may be that they weren't really up for the fight and decided to back away when they were asked about it. Or it may be they felt like I had no right checking him and wanted to leave because of that. Either way, I doubt we would have made a good match with them. And after my filtering, we ended up getting 2 great people and beat the fight on the 2nd try, so it seemed to pay off...

In general, for situations like these, when you're trying to clear a somewhat difficult fight where you need high enough performance from every single party member, FFlogs can be really helpful. Of course I don't think it's a good idea to kick someone based on their logs without talking to them, so if you notice someone joining and they seem to have a very low performance history from multiple fights and kills, you can ask them if there's a reason for that, and if they believe they can meet the requirements of the fight well enough now. And then again, if you can see that the person has been able to clear the fight successfully without dying once in the past, even if their DPS has been a bit low, that itself is a good enough recommendation for me. I just wish people wouldn't be so spooked about it - after all, the numbers and ratings aren't based on anything but your objective performance at some point, and you can always improve them. And also, it's important to remember that people are people and not numbers - when looking at a person's ratings, also talk to them and give them a chance if they truly believe they can do what you're asking.

[Awha]

4 years of playing this game and all the toxic behavior I have seen in-game was nothing to do with parsers.

In my opinion if parser abuse was so commonplace where something needed to be done about it I feel I should have definitely seen some of it by now. I play way too darn much to have not seen anything by now if it was common.

Sad truth it is only common if you are bad, not much of a raider mostly play this game to craft, rp, and make fake monies. Though my friends that do 'try' to raid are horrible, I mean I cringe when they ask me to tank for them since I know it will be an ordeal. I cannot tell you how often I hear the whine in discord in or guild chat that people bash them for playing sub-par. Not defending or trying to excuse anything. Just saying that if it is not common for you or those around you does not mean it is any less of an issue for those players that are not up to the already fairly low bar.


Also if you guys see this you know I love you. :smirk:

[HyoMinPark]

Sad truth it is only common if you are bad, not much of a raider mostly play this game to craft, rp, and make fake monies. Though my friends that do 'try' to raid are horrible, I mean I cringe when they ask me to tank for them since I know it will be an ordeal. I cannot tell you how often I hear the whine in discord in or guild chat that people bash them for playing sub-par. Not defending or trying to excuse anything. Just saying that if it is not common for you or those around you does not mean it is any less of an issue for those players that are not up to the already fairly low bar.

While the experiences are all going to be anecdotal since no one has actually done any hard research that parsers increase toxic behavior, I have been in groups with some really subpar players (Ex primals and Savage; i.e., content where parsers and parsing actually matter), and I know there are more people than me parsing in there...yet no one ever says anything about them unless it’s something like a tank failing to hold hate, or a healer failing to heal, which are both things that you don’t need a parser to see. The most anyone says is after the bad player leaves, and it’s usually something like “Good riddance; they kept dying” or “Well, that works. They were only pulling 900~1,000 DPS as a BLM anyways”. Never have I seen people actively stand there and harass/berate a player to their face.

The “parser harassment” really does not occur as much as people like to claim it does, even to the “bad players”—the times it does occur, I feel like people blow them out of proportion, and start saying things like “I was harassed once in Expert Roulette over numbers, so parsers are bad and all they do is make people harass everyone all the time, and people that parse all need to be banned”.

I’ve seen once instance with a person saying something negative about an individual’s DPS numbers, and they weren’t doing so hot themselves. It happened in a Zurvan Ex bird farm (which, that fight already brought out the worst in everyone so), and a MCH was harassing a SMN about “missing 20 times” and “having crappy DPS”. And really, the only reason the individual’s numbers were bad was because they were lacking accuracy for the fight; other than that, their rotation was fine (according to my friend who was also there, and who was a SMN main). They certainly did more than a lot of other SMNs I had encountered in Heavensward (by this, I mean that they actually helped the healers raise dead players).

I’ve never seen people complain about numbers in dungeons. Closest I’ve seen is after a tank pulls a large pack, dies because the mobs aren’t dying fast enough, and after we respawn, they say something like “I’ll just do smaller pulls; not enough damage going out”—and again, that’s something you don’t even need a parser to see. It’s easy to tell when DPS aren’t AOEing packs down, not only from how long they’re taking to die, but from the fact that their TP is basically full the entire time. So, again, not really something you need a parser to see.