Tank dps harrasment

[Miste]

I wish they would just encrypt the data so FFLOGS would no longer work or any other parser for that matter. There being misused to the detriment of the community and need to go away.

4 years of playing this game and all the toxic behavior I have seen in-game was nothing to do with parsers.

In my opinion if parser abuse was so commonplace where something needed to be done about it I feel I should have definitely seen some of it by now. I play way too darn much to have not seen anything by now if it was common.

Parsers are incredibly helpful for statics who wish to overall talk about improvement if it is needed to clear the content.

As for me personally I want to be able to see how I can improve and it is about me, not anyone else. I don't care about what others are doing I only care about my contribution and improving myself.

Why should we lose this tool over a possibly very very small % of people who abuse it? I mean would you ban all rulers from a high school just because one student used it to hit another student in the face? I doubt it...the kid would get reported and suspended and if it kept happening then eventually expelled. You get rid of the person abusing the tool, not the tool itself.

[Awha]

4 years of playing this game and all the toxic behavior I have seen in-game was nothing to do with parsers.

In my opinion if parser abuse was so commonplace where something needed to be done about it I feel I should have definitely seen some of it by now. I play way too darn much to have not seen anything by now if it was common.

Sad truth it is only common if you are bad, not much of a raider mostly play this game to craft, rp, and make fake monies. Though my friends that do 'try' to raid are horrible, I mean I cringe when they ask me to tank for them since I know it will be an ordeal. I cannot tell you how often I hear the whine in discord in or guild chat that people bash them for playing sub-par. Not defending or trying to excuse anything. Just saying that if it is not common for you or those around you does not mean it is any less of an issue for those players that are not up to the already fairly low bar.


Also if you guys see this you know I love you. :smirk:

[HyoMinPark]

Sad truth it is only common if you are bad, not much of a raider mostly play this game to craft, rp, and make fake monies. Though my friends that do 'try' to raid are horrible, I mean I cringe when they ask me to tank for them since I know it will be an ordeal. I cannot tell you how often I hear the whine in discord in or guild chat that people bash them for playing sub-par. Not defending or trying to excuse anything. Just saying that if it is not common for you or those around you does not mean it is any less of an issue for those players that are not up to the already fairly low bar.

While the experiences are all going to be anecdotal since no one has actually done any hard research that parsers increase toxic behavior, I have been in groups with some really subpar players (Ex primals and Savage; i.e., content where parsers and parsing actually matter), and I know there are more people than me parsing in there...yet no one ever says anything about them unless it’s something like a tank failing to hold hate, or a healer failing to heal, which are both things that you don’t need a parser to see. The most anyone says is after the bad player leaves, and it’s usually something like “Good riddance; they kept dying” or “Well, that works. They were only pulling 900~1,000 DPS as a BLM anyways”. Never have I seen people actively stand there and harass/berate a player to their face.

The “parser harassment” really does not occur as much as people like to claim it does, even to the “bad players”—the times it does occur, I feel like people blow them out of proportion, and start saying things like “I was harassed once in Expert Roulette over numbers, so parsers are bad and all they do is make people harass everyone all the time, and people that parse all need to be banned”.

I’ve seen once instance with a person saying something negative about an individual’s DPS numbers, and they weren’t doing so hot themselves. It happened in a Zurvan Ex bird farm (which, that fight already brought out the worst in everyone so), and a MCH was harassing a SMN about “missing 20 times” and “having crappy DPS”. And really, the only reason the individual’s numbers were bad was because they were lacking accuracy for the fight; other than that, their rotation was fine (according to my friend who was also there, and who was a SMN main). They certainly did more than a lot of other SMNs I had encountered in Heavensward (by this, I mean that they actually helped the healers raise dead players).

I’ve never seen people complain about numbers in dungeons. Closest I’ve seen is after a tank pulls a large pack, dies because the mobs aren’t dying fast enough, and after we respawn, they say something like “I’ll just do smaller pulls; not enough damage going out”—and again, that’s something you don’t even need a parser to see. It’s easy to tell when DPS aren’t AOEing packs down, not only from how long they’re taking to die, but from the fact that their TP is basically full the entire time. So, again, not really something you need a parser to see.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

You may feel like people blow it out of proportion when it does happen, and

Snip . . .

you may feel it is not a common thing because you do not see it.

These are both fair points, but for one I rarely saw toxic behavior in PvP does that make it any more of an issue to certain players? Probably not. That point aside let us say that harassment only happens to one player a month, in my honest opinion that is once too much. It is a great tool, I use to raid hardcore back in WoW pushing for world and server firsts, though I really have no desire nor commitment to enter a new raiding scene. I do understand the value the tool provides to further ones play. Still people do abuse it, and no matter how infrequent the two of you may feel it happens still does not chance the fact that said issues do happen to players, and for the players that it does happen to it is big issue that truly effects their enjoyment of the game.

Do I wish people had thicker skin and took things in stride? Yeah would make everything much easier, and we probably would still have chat enabled in PvP. Even so I am not going to pretend issues do not not happen because I rarely ever saw them. I willing to bet it happens often to my friends cause they are far below avenge, I mean one of them sicks in tank stance and only uses their enmity combo, and yeah you do not need a meter to see that people are under-preforming, the meter just adds insult to injury. The easiest fix would be to make fflogs opt in instead of opt out, or make it so the data shown on the site is only your personal data. It would not fix the core issue, but like how the pvp chat bad did not fix the so called toxic pvp community at the very least it provided the illusion of it. Which is all a lot of people need.

[Dualgunner]

That point aside let us say that harassment only happens to one player a month, in my honest opinion that is once too much.

I agree: one person harassed is one person too many. But it remains unfair to deny people a tool because someone will abuse it: there is not a single tool in the history of mankind that cannot be misused someway to the detriment of people. The same logic could be applied to these forums; to the game itself; to the entire internet. Not to mention, even in absence of parsers, harassment doesn't generally go down, it takes other forms.

[Awha]

I agree: one person harassed is one person too many. But it remains unfair to deny people a tool because someone will abuse it: there is not a single tool in the history of mankind that cannot be misused someway to the detriment of people. The same logic could be applied to these forums; to the game itself; to the entire internet. Not to mention, even in absence of parsers, harassment doesn't generally go down, it takes other forms.

Did not mean to infer that I wanted them to get rid of them, my post was mostly aimed towards people that feel it is either not common because they do not see it, or when it does happen people blow it out of proportion. Though to be fair SE pretty much did that to the PvP community, that aside they should do something to either inform FFlogs to make them opt in instead out or make it so the data shown is only personal. As I said in my other post it would not fix much of anything, but at the very least it would offer the illusion of protection from harassment

[Miste]

my post was mostly aimed towards people that feel it is either not common because they do not see it

Even so I am not going to pretend issues do not not happen because I rarely ever saw them.

Well, to be honest, you aren't going to change my mind about this so there is no point in continuing to try really. If I haven't seen any of it in 4 years of playing it to me that casts a lot of doubt on how frequent it occurs and nothing you say is going to change my mind on this. The only thing that could change my mind would be if my experiences suddenly dramatically change in-game to seeing a lot of parser abuse against other players.

How am I pretending issues never happen?? I never claimed it doesn't happen. All I said was my experience and my opinion that it casts doubt on how "frequent" it is.

One player once a month is negligible and you are free you have your opinion that once a month is too much and I agree I wish it didn't happen at all of course, but this is the internet unfortunately and any MMO are also in this territory. You aren't going to be able to stop people from sometimes being jerks to each other parser or no parser. It would be awesome if we could stop it, but even the nicest people get angry sometimes. Human nature and all that.

If you play MMOs you kind of have to expect to come across some jerks sometimes. Not saying it doesn't suck we have to deal with it, but we do, and the best option is to report them. I totally wish we could all get along better, but if human history up till now has any indication this is an extremely hard thing to accomplish even if we advocate it.

[Shurrikhan]

never seen people complain about numbers in dungeons. Closest I’ve seen is after a tank pulls a large pack, dies because the mobs aren’t dying fast enough, and after we respawn, they say something like “I’ll just do smaller pulls; not enough damage going out”—and again, that’s something you don’t even need a parser to see. It’s easy to tell when DPS aren’t AOEing packs down, not only from how long they’re taking to die, but from the fact that their TP is basically full the entire time. So, again, not really something you need a parser to see.

Just yesterday, and not for the first time, I had a run where I said pretty much just exactly that and was threatened with a ban on suspicion of parsing, and repeatedly berated over the rest of the run by one of the DPS. My intent was simply to assure the relatively new healer, when he asked, that there was nothing he could have done better to have made the full size pull feasible for us; either at least a couple mobs die before we both run out of CDs, or we get crushed (35 seconds in and not one mob was dead, and one DPS still at full TP). It went so far as being harassed outside of the instance as well, being told repeatedly over whispers that I'm elitist and passive aggressive filth, all from the simple line "Don't worry, that's not on you; we just didn't have enough DPS to pull it off. We tested that, and you did good, but I'm going to do smaller pulls from here out."

It continually shocks me that people would hark so heavily on the ability for people to use player support tools like parsers in a toxic manner, yet cannot understand why parser's current "don't ask, don't tell" state already sanctions incredible toxicity.

It's gotten to the point that I scarcely communicate in dungeons anymore. If there's a Dragoon who won't use Heavy Thrust or won't reproc BotD between pulls, I say nothing, because no matter the specificity of the advice, I more frequently hear back that I must be using a parser and that they've just reported me, "see you later... or never." Unless the mood is light from the start, I either judge by the lowest common denominator and silently adjust accordingly or risk being threatened.

[Miste]

Sad truth it is only common if you are bad

Just saying that if it is not common for you or those around you does not mean it is any less of an issue for those players that are not up to the already fairly low bar.

I maybe wasn't clear enough but I do tons of DF and PF content with randoms. I have seen some very bad players and I've seen some epic scale bad players.... and yet I still haven't seen this parser abuse yet in 4 years. I understand that me being a raider myself I am unlikely to come across people with issues with my contribution level, but I am in groups with randoms enough where I think I would have seen something by now even if said abuse was not directed at me personally.

Seems to cast doubt on it being a frequent occurrence in-game. All the times I've seen people kick other players from PF groups was due to said player repeatedly failing the same mechanics over and over in a group where the PF required those mechanics already be learned. I have not seen anyone kicked for parse numbers so far.

In DF almost all the kicks I have seen that were not for AFK/Offline were due to trolling and/or verbal abuse against fellow party members.

So yes I have seen people get upset at others for failing mechanics and/or wiping the group, but none of those reasons are parser related since it is easy to see when someone dies often, fails mechanics, or wipes the group. General role failure as well...you don't need a parser to see if a tank isn't keeping hate, getting one shot by tank buster because no mitigation, or a healer that isn't healing. These reasons are the most frequent causes of disputes in my experience over the 4 years of doing content.