It's past time, Yoshi-P...

[Tridus]

I think I made it pretty clear that I understand that the flaw is caused by the design of the game. You do not need to "explain" that to me. I was pointing out that it isn't unreasonable for people familiar with other MMOs to come to this one thinking that healers... heal. Because that is what they do in other MMOs. You said it was "completely absurd" for players to have some expectation like this, and I pointed out why it is not.

This is entirely true, and it's the root of a lot of this. When I came over here from WoW and flipped to healer from BLM... I healed. In fact, I got annoyed at all these CNJ quests demanding I kill stuff because if I wanted to do that I'd be playing BLM (which is far, far better at it). Back when I was playing WoW, the endgame healing design was "you heal", especially if you were a MT healer. It was entirely possible for a tank to go from full to dead in three seconds from standard damage in a lot of fights and you simply had to have heals going out reliably.

It didn't click right away that the game design here is very much not that. That's the expectation a lot of players have when they come in. You see it all the time from new players, and other job players that start healing for the first time. I'd never kick someone for it outside of Ex or Savage because content below that often has people who are still learning, and that's not the way I prefer to handle someone who isn't actively being malicious. They're playing suboptimally, sure. But so was I, and people were nicer to me about it.

If you want to ask if the game should be that way, it's a complex issue that comes down to opinion on what you want the healing role to be. Changing it to be a pure healing focus would draw some people who don't like the DPS focused style, but would also chase off a lot of the healers we have now that do like it. It'd require major changes to how healing skills, incoming damage, encounter design, and even character stats are being done. Healing would be largely unrecognizable from what we have today if you did it.

For the game we have now? Look... the fundamental rule in any group is that everyone should be expected to do their best to help the group succeed. That means you use your kit to the best of your ability. Since each of us has different skill levels, that doesn't mean you need to have 99% uptime while doing a minimum of 2000 DPS as a healer. It does mean you have to try to help, and tossing up DoTs is more helpful than standing around doing nothing. Standing around doing nothing for 20 seconds (entirely doable on O2N as a healer after putting Regen up on the MT) can't in any way be construed as you helping the group. The examples from the other roles are me deciding to tank while doing zero DPS(*), which as a Paladin is entirely doable thanks to the miracle of flash spam. I'll just hit that button a bunch, then stand around doing nothing. The mobs are hitting me so I've done my role requirement, right? The main difference between the tanks and the healers is that absolutely no tank will defend that as acceptable.

*I don't actually do that. I do use Clemency a lot though, which according to some posters here is outside my job description as a tank. Maybe it is, but I prefer to not wipe, and Clemency is pretty helpful in that department.

[Maeka]

@Tridus: Clemency rocks.

I pop that quite often myself. I do all of my standard tanking stuff, but I also keep Clemency and the F-keys at the ready. I've saved healers' lives when they ate AoEs, and I've allowed the healer to put in extra DPS by throwing one on myself now and then.

I'm far from the perfect tank, but I enjoy helping out the other group members. I need to find a way to get Cover easier to reach in a pinch, but until then, there's Clemency. I love that spell; it is so awesome.

[Naunet]

They'd have to pry Holy from my cold-dead fingers if they ever forcibly shifted the meta towards a more 'pure' healing playstyle.

Having healers spend the majority of their time healing in group content doesn't mean eliminating dps spells. Healer jobs need to be able to solo out in the open world, too, after all.

[Missbone]

If you've got a discord feel free to add me(moromurasaki#5719), that way if I ever make an EU alt (which I am looking into) I could run something with you

Happy you're being more open to things!

I dont think i will ever make an alt in this game, it simply takes to mutch time and is not realy necessary. Im now about near 110 days played at just this one char and have still so mutch to do.^^

But if you dont mind i can add you on discord anyway, even if im still not used to using it regulary. But if you ever feel like creating a twink on Ragnarok or somewhere else on Chaos you can add me.

lol.

Why not make every single MMORPG exactly the same, then everybody can be a strict wow-clone, lol.

(/sarcasm, of course)

I dont realy want to say this.^^ But what you mean as a joke is in reality in more mmos the chase than you maybe think. Like i mentioned earlier i tried in the past a lot of mmos and a lot of them (most of them are f2p) use a lot of stuff that you can find in wow, also wow copied a lot of things from other mmos or mods (yes the raidwindows in wow today where at the beginning an community addon that whas released in wow classic to allow players (healers in first place) to manage the big 40 people raids. Later (i think sometime during BC) wow used this idea and put their own raidwindows into the game, after that it became an standart feature for mmos) in the past. The thing that you allways will mention first is the interface, a lot of games use the same Interface like wow. Also you can see often that targeting and questmanagement works the same way like in wow or the skill trees and there is a lot more.

If you, for example, take a look at Warhammer Online, Everquest 2, Swtor, Lotro, even Star Trek Online (of course they are more) they all have a lot stuff with WoW in common because people like the way things work and expect this from a good game (if it allways make sense is another thing^^). Sure things looks a bit different here and there to give the games their own toutch, but when you reduce it to the basics its the same.

I personaly think its not bad to copy something popular from another game and use it for you own. The thing is how good is your variaition of the same idea is and how well it works in your game.

[TaleraRistain]

I agree with you, OP. And it's up to the developers to make the necessary adjustments. Their content does not require full-time healing or tanking abilities. So those roles are forced to use their dps abilities to stay active. They need to make healing and tanking more necessary. They need to randomize fights more instead of having so much scripted damage. They may consider disabling dps abilities for non-dps roles in group content, but they could replace them with more support abilities like haste, damage shields, or crowd control abilities.

Now, if the development team isn't willing to take these measures, then the dps meta will stay and those who don't like being half dps in a non-dps role will need to find other games that have more strongly-defined party roles.

[MoroMurasaki]

Now, if the development team isn't willing to take these measures, then the dps meta will stay and those who don't like being half dps in a non-dps role will need to find other games that have more strongly-defined party roles.

But I think that is at least part of the reason combat in this game exists in it's current iteration - there are lots of games out there that play up the holy trinity to the point that tank and healer DPS are not really a concern for whatever reason. This game takes a different approach.


I mean honestly the idea of such a huge overhaul of the game is pretty much off the table. To do this they would have to scale every encounter in the game to meet new mitigation/healing/DPS thresholds and I just can't see the devs putting that time and effort into old content. Even if, against overwhelming odds, SE wanted to enforce 'pure' tanks and healers the effective cost is prohibitive enough on it's own to stop them... not to mention the subs they would certainly lose.

I dont think i will ever make an alt in this game, it simply takes to mutch time and is not realy necessary. Im now about near 110 days played at just this one char and have still so mutch to do.^^

But if you dont mind i can add you on discord anyway, even if im still not used to using it regulary. But if you ever feel like creating a twink on Ragnarok or somewhere else on Chaos you can add me.

Alrighty. You can either add me (moromurasaki#5719) or post yours here and I'lk add you

[Wanzer]

...

Hi, mog delivery service! From Maeka to you.
Hey, is that a cross-thread?

> http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...omised-someone.....

[AxlStream]

Wait... What kind of meta could even be approached in a PvE MMORPG other than a DPS heavy meta? The goal of every fight (except 2nd boss bardam) is to get the boss' HP to 0. Only way to do so is damage.

[Fyce]

It didn't click right away that the game design here is very much not that. That's the expectation a lot of players have when they come in. You see it all the time from new players, and other job players that start healing for the first time. I'd never kick someone for it outside of Ex or Savage because content below that often has people who are still learning, and that's not the way I prefer to handle someone who isn't actively being malicious. They're playing suboptimally, sure. But so was I, and people were nicer to me about it.

Just to make it clear: nobody is arguing about how new players don't play optimally.
What is argued revolves around experienced players who made the deliberate choice not to play how the game was designed, even after having the full knowledge of what should and shouldn't be done. It's also about these players not caring about trying to have a balanced team effort no matter what, simply because of their beliefs. We are talking about selfish individuals who make their own comfort as their number one priority, often at the expense of others.

And since you said "this is entirely true, and it's the root of a lot of this" to someone who thinks that the way FFXIV healers are desined is a "flaw", I am obligated to say it again: no, it's not a flaw. The flaw is inside these people's brain, who refuse to think that a game's take on that aspect might be different than the very few other games they have played. They are simply inept to adapt, and that's the problem. Not the game.

[TaleraRistain]

But I think that is at least part of the reason combat in this game exists in it's current iteration - there are lots of games out there that play up the holy trinity to the point that tank and healer DPS are not really a concern for whatever reason. This game takes a different approach.

It didn't always. Things were different when it was just ARR. SE has slowly made healing and tanking less necessary. They can continue it or if they really don't intend for the game to be like this, they can make adjustments.