It's past time, Yoshi-P...

[Maeka]

RE:Selova: Your Enter Key says Hi. I think it's lonely.

That said, I can vouch for the fact that you can in fact do at least some DPS and you should never go OOM. If you (talking to Missbone here) OOM, at least as a WHM because you DPS'd, then you are playing very badly.

I don't maximize DPS, but I do throw Aero IIIs when I feel I can safely, and I'll even try to sneak a Holy in when there's enough mobs that I think that it is beneficial. Bosses get pounded with Stone IVs during times when everybody's full and I know nobody's gonna get hit in the next 3+ seconds.

I have never, ever, ever run out of MP in any Level 70 dungeon as a WHM. Never. There was even this time when a tank mashed sprint from the getgo, didn't use his CDs and pulled 3 groups at once and I did nonstop Cure2 and cooldowns to keep him alive. Ended the fight with 25% MP left and Lucid on cooldown, but still didn't run out of MP.

I do not understand how it is even POSSIBLE to run out of MP anymore.

[Enla]

RE:Selova: Your Enter Key says Hi. I think it's lonely.

That said, I can vouch for the fact that you can in fact do at least some DPS and you should never go OOM. If you (talking to Missbone here) OOM, at least as a WHM because you DPS'd, then you are playing very badly.

I don't maximize DPS, but I do throw Aero IIIs when I feel I can safely, and I'll even try to sneak a Holy in when there's enough mobs that I think that it is beneficial. Bosses get pounded with Stone IVs during times when everybody's full and I know nobody's gonna get hit in the next 3+ seconds.

I have never, ever, ever run out of MP in any Level 70 dungeon as a WHM. Never. There was even this time when a tank mashed sprint from the getgo, didn't use his CDs and pulled 3 groups at once and I did nonstop Cure2 and cooldowns to keep him alive. Ended the fight with 25% MP left and Lucid on cooldown, but still didn't run out of MP.

I do not understand how it is even POSSIBLE to run out of MP anymore.

It literally is impossible for WHM if they're rotating Lucid and Thin Air properly. Gone are the days when simply looking at your MP bar even for a second would cause it to vanish in a puff of smoke, with WHM easily wrestling the most MP efficient title away from SCH with ease. The /only/ way I can see someone running out of MP is if they only cast Cure III or Medica/II exclusively, which as has been discussed is a VERY bad way to play this or any other healing class. Especially with Cure III as that spell is primarily proximity based and most of the time the party is spread too thinly for it to be effective.

[Maeka]

Also, I think I will mention my official stance on Healer DPS:

I believe that you should be doing something most of the time. I am not a player who insists that you "waste" no more than 0.1 sec every GCD, but yet I feel that if you stand around for more than a second or two without reason (waiting for an AoE, or waiting for an incoming big hit you know is coming, or what-not), then you probably should do SOMETHING, and that something is throw DPS spells. Even just an Aero 1 at something, it has no cast time, surely you can do at least that, right?

I do not believe that every healer should try to maximize DPS to the point they gear for DPS, and they constantly try to DPS hardcore, unless you are looking to join a raiding FC/Linkshell/whatever that does actual raids (and not the Duty Finder raids) or Savage content of any sort.

If you're just doing Duty Finder junk, you do not need to maximize your DPS while healing. It's just not necessary. You shouldn't be wasting time and resources frivolously, but yet I don't see where you have to maximize either. Duty Finder is supposed to be relaxing and fun. I don't have fun when I'm being expected to make absolutely no mistakes whatsoever and am given zero room for error. That's why I don't do Savage content. I'm not a pro player and I freely admit that.

I'm actually kind of lazy compared to those people, but even I will throw DPS spells when I feel comfortable. Everybody has their comfort zone, and I tend to err on the side of caution as I do some overhealing, but I don't do it to the extreme where I waste 75% of my cures either.

I think a lot of people who yell at healers for not DPSing, are doing so with the healers who are standing around with their fingers someplace they shouldn't be doing absolutely nothing.

As lazy as I am, and as lacking in pro skills as I am, I have never once got yelled at, or vote-kicked. I get commendations rather often. It isn't too uncommon for me to see 3/3 in Duty Finder.

EDIT: RE: Enla: Sometimes I forget to hit Lucid, lol. I know that's just me the player being bad, but every so often I'll glance down at my MP and see I'm at 20-30% and I'm like "GAAH!" and throw Lucid up, but even then I STILL don't run out of MP.

[HyoMinPark]

Well maybe its a bad attiude if i have some principles, i cant help that. Its not my fault if the game gives me to less to do as healer, but honestly most time i dont feel this way. If people realy belive its bad behavior doing nothing sometimes for 3-5 seconds before the next hit comes than they have far greater problems then my playstyle. I would never expect from a tank or dd to help me with healing or a dd to tank thats not their job, so from my point of view its not realy unfair if i only focus on healing.

If you only do content like dungeons and 24-mans, there is literally never a time where damage is incoming every 3-5 seconds. Not even on the MT. Take the third boss in Rabanastre: aside from occasionally bopping the main tank, it does absolutely nothing in terms of AOE raid damage in the first 30 seconds—more so if people move out of the Crush Weapon AOEs. How can you justify standing idle for that long?

Even when I get tanks that do large pulls in dungeons, I can still weave in offensive magic to help down the group faster. You play WHM, right? You have access to the strongest healer AOE in this game: Holy. Which provides a stun for 3 casts before diminishing returns kicks in. That alone is not only powerful DPS, but mitigation. Stunned mobs cannot hit the tank. Thin Air > Presence of Mind > Holy is godly in large pulls in dungeons. I honestly get disappointed when I don’t see WHMs spamming it unless, again, they are brand new to the duty and still unsure.

Sry but i have no idea what you talking about, i never had a single run where i didnt need to do anything. Like i said above, the biggest breake i had from time to time where like 3-5 seconds. Doing nothing looks a bit else to me sry. Btw. if a RDM would spam Vercure all the time he would be oom pretty fast.

You must have been doing a lot of overhealing, because again, there is no instance where outgoing damage occurs every 3-5 seconds in content like dungeons or 24-mans. Maybe during Neo’s Neverwhere punchy-punchy he does before V4S enrage, but even then, healers can DPS until he reaches around 7 stacks of damage up before they have to switch to primarily healing. A good healer can opt solo-heal the damage while the other continues to DPS, or they can tag team healing and DPSing. That’s how teamwork works.

A RDM Vercure hits for slightly less than a WHM’s Cure. Dualcasting it hits for about as much as a Cure II. In boss fights, you won’t need a RDM to be “spamming” Vercure, but only use it every once in a while. May detract from their personal DPS, but they would still be doing more than an idle healer.



I see that you have also stated in this thread that, if a tank does baby pulls, you will tell him to pull more. That would be fine, if you hadn’t also said that people shouldn’t tell you how to play your game. Don’t tell others how to play theirs if you don’t want people telling you how to play yours. Simple as that.

That being said, if I were your tank and saw you standing around idly, you can be sure I would pull as much as I could. If you want to work, then I’m going to make you work. Sorry if that sounds rude, but I find it incredibly rude to have an idle healer in my group. While I’ve never kicked a healer for not DPSing, nor said anything to them outright unless I’m in an incredibly foul mood (which I usually avoid dungeons when I am), I still don’t like seeing it. It’s laziness, and not good teamwork. And it just makes a run last longer than it would if you were contributing to DPS.

Healers can usually pull anywhere from 15% to 20% of the total damage of a run for a 4-man dungeon; 10% to 15% for 8-mans. That is certainly nothing to scoff at.

[MoroMurasaki]

It literally is impossible for WHM if they're rotating Lucid and Thin Air properly. Gone are the days when simply looking at your MP bar even for a second would cause it to vanish in a puff of smoke, with WHM easily wrestling the most MP efficient title away from SCH with ease. The /only/ way I can see someone running out of MP is if they only cast Cure III or Medica/II exclusively, which as has been discussed is a VERY bad way to play this or any other healing class.

I find any situation I'm going to go OOM on is usually a wipe either way. Things have to reeeeeeealy hit the fan to the point I'm hardcasting multiple raises and have burned through all my CDs to keep people standing.

I joined a shin practice party like that. People were literally falling off to Tidal Wave. The MT did several times and each time the OT (who was not second on threat) would take upwards of 15 seconds to Provoke the boss. This meant someone squishy (usually me, thanks HoT aggro) taking autos. You burn everything you have covering for a few mistakes then leave yourself with nothing left for the next round of mistakes.

But yes, very hard to go OOM on WHM. You pretty much will die first.

[Missbone]

But you're right, I don't pay your sub and you don't pay mine. Now where did I put my votekick button...

What a shame and i realy thought you where a smart and nice person, but with that comment you clearly showed that u are not better than all these dungeon elitist i encountered so far. In my expirence its nothing bad to stay silent and your thoughts for yourself, if someone realy wants help he usually asks for it. Also if i realy see someone falling down the stairs it highly depends on the impression i get from the person if im willing to help or not. This make me maybe sound like an asshole but i seen far to many ungratfull people (someone even get mad at you) than that im willing to help blindly everyone.

I dont think that you are a bad person but to me it seems that you are not able (like many others here) to handle persons well that have their own opinion (witch dosnt fit your own) and stick with it.

[Enla]

I find any situation I'm going to go OOM on is usually a wipe either way. Things have to reeeeeeealy hit the fan to the point I'm hardcasting multiple raises and have burned through all my CDs to keep people standing.

I joined a shin practice party like that. People were literally falling off to Tidal Wave. The MT did several times and each time the OT (who was not second on threat) would take upwards of 15 seconds to Provoke the boss. This meant someone squishy (usually me, thanks HoT aggro) taking autos. You burn everything you have covering for a few mistakes then leave yourself with nothing left for the next round of mistakes.

But yes, very hard to go OOM on WHM. You pretty much will die first.

True, I definitely forgot the moments when the shit hits the fan as an example for when you'll go OOM! Thankfully though I've felt that WHM in particular is the easiest to recover when that happens? I've only gotten WHM and SCH to 70 so I can't speak to how AST plays at higher levels, but between the former two I always felt I could salvage the situation a lot easier with WHM. SCH is no slouch either, but Energy Drain takes up an Aetherflow stack that could have gone to a Lustrate or Excogitation (that might save a newly rezz'd person or tank) instead so it's often a matter of picking your poison.

[Maeka]

Thin Air > Presence of Mind > Holy is godly in large pulls in dungeons. I honestly get disappointed when I don’t see WHMs spamming it unless, again, they are brand new to the duty and still unsure.

I'm the cautious sort with a mix of bad luck on the side.

About the time I would blow stuff like PoM or Swiftcast, I would find myself needing it before it's ready again and end up being SOL. Like, Swiftcast a Holy and 2 seconds later, some idiot DPS decides to eat two AoEs simultaneously and is now dead. Gee, wish I had Swiftcast....

That, and I'm not the fastest around when it comes to some of the hotbar buttons. I put the important abilities I must use constantly or in 'blink and die' situations on buttons I can reach fast, but Swiftcast I've pretty much consigned to being "Instant Raise" and I save it purely for that. If I have to instant-raise someone, I will have a few seconds of planning, and thus time to get its button ready to cast it.

Not the optimal setup, but meh. I blame ability bloat for having far too many abilities on my hotbar.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Gdi Cass, get HyoMin, we found another healer DPS debate that didn't start as one >.<

I will, of course, alert Tridus. I assume Sebazy's healerdpssense is tingling.

/laugh

Well, Hyomin has arrived. (/happy) But, where's Tridus and Seabazy? We are in the part of the debate where the thread troll just played the victim card.

[Maeka]

snip

So what you're saying is that if you enter a Lv70 dungeon where you've got a tank who never uses AoE threat and let's the DPS tank the mobs, it's bad to votekick the guy because "they have their own opinion"? Where do you draw the line in where a votekick is justified?

I don't like excessive votekicking either, but seriously, out of ALL, I mean ALL of the Duty Finder I've done, I've participated in <5 votekicks that were for anything other than AFK/Disconnect purposes. Pretty sure that this is only 1-2 but I will say <5 to be sure.

I really, REALLY hate the forum system. 1000 characters is just asinine.