Tank dps harrasment

[Sunhwapark]

an AST who never uses cards.....

Sadly there are these kinds of players that exist in eorzea, people trying to clear O4S without putting in... i guess the buzz word of this thread could be... 'effort'.

Astrologians who are mentally glamoured White Mages and have never used the spells:

• Lightspeed
• Draw
• Synastry
• Malefic & Combust
• Collective Unconcious
• Earthly Star

Are very often the same ones who are quick to bash white mages saying the job is 'too easy', but it's clear as crystal that they are definitely over-estimating their own ability to play astrologian at all if they're pretending to be an astro that has been force synced to below level 30, in level 70 savage content where the card system/stances and everything else practically doesn't exist, playing whitemagewithnewicons 2.0. I guess this sort of thing drives me up the wall personally but there isn't really much that can be done about this, even if you try to question the behaviour. Even giving advice to some people can be dangerous it seems, some people are accepting of it and others lash out at you - this thread's various replies and comments kind of resonate the sort of responses you may get when talking to players regarding improvement.

In a raid setting, I suppose i feel as though it would be burdensome to try and contest against 7 other players if they raised the issue or even suggested that i may not be performing on a team level at all, although in reality i would try to comply with their standards - and if i am not up to that level, i am going to try to improve my skill, via 'effort' and try again. People tend to assume that you have to be ultimate elite try-hard to clear the harder content(ex primals/savage), but to be honest... it really isn't that - it is honestly about putting in portions of effort to build upon their ability to play - as that gold logs dragoon fellow had mentioned. I personally believe that each player should just try to bring everything they can to the table, not just for yourself but for their team too.

I don't really have anything of much value to add to this thread sadly-just wanted to dump a bit of salt into the pile regarding 'bare minimum' players, but i'd just like to mention it's been a very funny thread, with all the several sub topics being battled for/against and an interesting read at that. Although tbh OP, if you kept getting kicked from shinryu EX, you could have made your own PF, because then you dictate the rules somewhat and you can't get kicked if you're the leader, i guess..? Just to add - Personally i am lazy in anything outside of savage/ex, so people can RP blizzard wizard black mages or whatever. :P

[MoroMurasaki]

If you're asking that, it's clear you didn't read my prior reply. A PLD that only flashes is a far cry from a PLD that doesn't drop into DPS for dungeon bosses. For me, as long as the others in my casual content party can do their roles properly and are doing their best, I am fine if a tank stays in tank stance or a healer doesn't DPS. I am not going to attack them over it.

I repied specifically because I read your previous reply but didn't feel like arguing that specific point because (as Dualgunner already pointed out) that post is antecdotal and,not to be rude, therefor pointless.

The post I quoted on the other hand is someone trying to shut down this conversation with "live and let live" and I wanted to pose some hypotheticals to them. Based on what they said the examples of poor play I put up there are performing their primary job, albeit very poorly. Why is it okay to say that a tank can play poorly by never leaving tank stance but we can get a multiparagraph rant complete with an itemized list (no offense, I agree with most of that post honestly) about an AST not playing properly?

You don't appear to have thought through your position and it's defense. You have no distinct line to draw saying which underperformers are okay and which need improvment.

I do.

DPS should perform their basic rotation and keep buffs/dots up as appropriate while utelizing their support skills. Healers should prioritize party health but do so via as many oGCD abilities and CDs as they can then spend the rest of their time DPSing/buffing the party. Tanks need to mitigate by rotating CDs (tank stance included) and should drop stance in a situation like a dungeon boss where incoming damage is low and use of a threat generation combo is sufficent to hold the boss on them.

See, that is a defensible position. I have laid out my expectations. When people don't meet them I offer any advice I can, if they don't appear to improve and their continued presence is going to be an impediment or an undue burden on the rest of the party I will eventually initiate a votekick. I can say in about two years of playing this game I've kicked around 5 people for reasons other than being afk. My stance may sound extreme to you but it really isn't.

[Awful]

I love how just putting effort in means that this is toxic instead of sitting there spamming your 1-2-3 threat combo you can use the other 90% of your toolkit and contribute, that goes without saying there's many other players like DPS that don't use their AoEs, healers that use 2 buttons and none of their buffs. If i'm putting the effort in as a tank and i'm outdpsing the DPS then they have failed their job and I did mine, all i'm asking for is people try regardless of the class they're on.

[Alash]

Because if you aren't pulling those kinds of numbers you aren't playing as well as you could be.

[Lewtskie]

How long would you say it takes to gauge a parties capabilities? If you say the first pull then we're right back to the argument of we shouldn't judge people by a single solitary example (a la logs). If you go by the notion of up to the first boss, then over a third of the dungeon is over and who honestly cares at that point.

Not everything exists within a stagnant vacuum. If you're not clarifying from start if the healer is good with big or small pulls, then their reaction from the initial pull can tell you what you need. Are they DPSing in that downtime? Are they full on healing? Are the asking/ saying bigger is good? It will vary. If you take the mobs prior to first boss slow and it went well, then why would it not still matter at that point? You have two more camps to push through, so there's ample time to increase the pace.

'm an optimist. I very firmly believe that if you challenge people they will rise to the occasion. Worst case is that we fail. Failing is not a bad thing. It teaches us things and prompts reflection, which is integral to growth.

And i'm a realist. There can be those who will rise, and there will be others who fall. But at the end of the day you're toying with someone else's experience, and from what I understand, potentially without their consent. I'm not saying to let someone live in mediocrity if that is where they dwell, but you're opting to just take the reigns of someone else's experience for what seems more like for yourself than them, rather than offering that guiding hand.

Me personally? No I'd brush it off with something like: "I apologize for wiping us, I thought we could have handled that."

As I said before, I'd rather a new tank do this and fail, then sit in tank stance, tanking one mob at a time only using 1 combo because they're so scared of losing aggro. Sure he'll succeed (because participation trophy content), but I'LL be sitting there ROLLING my eyes and be annoyed at the 32 minute long dungeon run that should have been half that.

The quote before was purely metaphorical, not that I had assumed it's what you would say exactly. But what you would say bothers me. You thought they could handle it, but you say you just plunge head first without that gauging glance, so you only assumed. It may be splitting hairs but its assumptions like those that leads others, whom may not be as good-spirited as you, into a bad situation and taking it out on others. If they knew what you're saying now, would they be happy to know you just kinda winged it screaming Leeroy?

I don't believe in accepting the 1-2-3 turtle tank to keep doing his thing, but I don't think your methods are better. These experiences don't need to exist in extremes of either accepting the status quo or just blitzing it blind until something clicks.

It's possible for sure and I won't pretend to speculate either way. I merely gave an anecdotal experience to paint a picture.

Our personal experiences are what define our actions. This response leads me to explaining how I see this all.

Back around early-mid ARR I had joined the game, after a time between 1.xx and then, and I picked up MRD/WAR. My experiences with MMOs were slim-to-none, the concept of tank honestly was new-ish to me. I knew of the idea of tanks playing other games that weren't MMOs, but they can cast a different light. My time leveling MRD though was well enough, I was enjoying the idea of the tank; this was of course leveling to 50, so function was limited to just being tanky. Come to reaching 50 my world is opened to end game and all its quirks, among them being the mass pulls. Up until that point I was never pressed to mass pull or pull more than a camp at a time, it was never asked and I never considered it. And obviously would have been near impossible with what gear is available. So my FC mates at the time are explaining to me that this has become an almost necessary thing, because at the time the tomes farms were all about spamming the dungeons then, like Brayflox(Hard) and running them as fast as possible.

The idea of this was unsettling at first; I quite liked the careful and controlled style I was used to, so now this concept was like going from 0-60. Now being a fresh 50, gear wasn't just pouring from everywhere at that time and it was a little bit of work if you didn't really know what you were doing. But I gathered up what I could through MB and elsewhere and worked up the courage to press on into the big scary world of the Hard dungeons and whatnot. First run I did was with FC mates, and when I ran with them they were VERY pushy about me pulling large packs, not necessarily in a mean way, but more I got two experienced people telling to just do it, that they had it handled, and I honestly had no idea what was going on. Hindsight would tell me not to give into the peer-pressure, but I did.

The end result was obvious; my gear was nowhere near enough, I couldn't handle the damage and ended up in the dirt. What really nailed it in was the one on healer claimed she thought my gear was good enough. Being where she was, she should have easily been able to see I wasn't geared for heavy pulls, but she didn't look, she just assumed. The price of that was what confidence I had was near shattered and I was even more nervous than ever. I learned nothing from that other than my FC mates were butts. At some point after that I got desperate for better gear and decided to just throw myself into dungeon runs again, and it was fine until I came across one of those worst-case-scenario types of the most toxic and spiteful players, who was a BLM and tore me apart. I would get nervous pulling more than one camp, I would pull two, but it wasn't enough for them, they wanted more, so they would pull the camps themselves, and their gear was far superior, it was making the run an absolute nightmare for me. After that I just kinda gave up on WAR for the rest of ARR and all of HW while the tanking style of WAR was so aggressive. I considered the other tanks, but honestly those past experiences just kept me from working up any of that courage for the longest time.

tl;dr - Fresh 50 WAR, shit gear, pressured by FC mates of the time to mass pull. Got wiped, didn't learn a thing other than tanking was scary, later got shit on by BLM potato and got tanking PTSD. Still kinda working through it, tbh.

Long winded, but it's shown me that putting ALL the pressure on someone can end up really good, or really REALLY bad. And I feel this can be even more extreme when it's with someone you don't know, or maybe it's not as bad because there isn't any built trust to be completely shattered, idk. From that point, I've opted to take it slow and see how willing the one learning is to go once you give them a nudge, not a shove. Someone can push themselves on their own terms as hard as they see fit, but onto others, it's a game of tact.

[Fhaerron]

Actually, I was harassed for doing DPS as a tank.

Also for using Direct Hit & Strength gems on my gear.

For adds I'm always in Shield Oath because I like to pull many together. I only use flash when running trough them and 2 more times when I've rounded everything up and then just use Fight or Flight and spam Total Eclipse, when 3 or less enemies I finish them off with Royal Authority combos or Goring Blade if they are going to live for 6+ seconds and alternate my buffs of course.

On boss I rush in with Shield Throw > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Fight or Flight / Goring Blade. 2 times RoG and weave in CoS & SW between GCD's and a last GB to get a new full effect duration running with the last 3 seconds of FoF.
After this I do 2 more RoG and then I change to Sword Oath, Refresh GB and then use requisecat and spam HS untill MP runs out, refresh GB and spam RA.

Now the player harassing me was a DPS player. First he said why I was using Sword Oath this was during a boss fight so I didn't really responded, then after boss was dead he was asking why I was using 'DPS' gems and that these are for DPS jobs and that I should learn H2P and use 'tank' gems and that I was doing more DPS then him because I was in DPS stance so healer had to heal me more and so couldn't heal him and he died (he died multiple times from AoE puddles and pretty much failed every single mechanic).

The healer had no trouble to keep me alive and didn't complained (even had time to DPS too) and I never lost emnity. I try to do as much DPS as possible to speed up things but apparently I did something wrong?

[MoroMurasaki]

Actually, I was harassed for doing DPS as a tank.

Oh look guys, it's a tank that knows how to do a good job.

Seriously, after some of this conversation I had started to lose faith that they were out there.

The idea that someone would ask you to remove the most effective materia for your job is just crazy to me. That's like asking me to remove all my Crit materia for my healer gear and meld Piety, why would I ever want to do that?

Also nice to see you on the forums!

[SuperZay]

All jobs in this game are DPS with secondary responsibilities: tanking, healing, support.
Once you realise this mindset, you'll become a better player and will play better.
Staying in tank stance when its not needed or semi-afking with casting one Cure II in 15 seconds is just doing a bare minimum of what your job can do.

[Xerek]

All jobs in this game are DPS with secondary responsibilities: tanking, healing, support.
Once you realise this mindset, you'll become a better player and will play better.
Staying in tank stance when its not needed or semi-afking with casting one Cure II in 15 seconds is just doing a bare minimum of what your job can do.

...

There is a disconnect in thread, and I think I'm done with it. I DPS as a healer, I drop to DPS stance as a tank. Never have I said people shouldn't. My sole arguement has been there are some people who cannot do better. Not won't, can't. And in regards to casual content, my line for minimum is tank hold adds, healer keep people alive. Casual content is casual. I do not approve of or endorse laziness. If people can do better, they should. But I'm not about to attack or kick people in casual content that are doing they best they can and accomplishing the goal SE has stated for their job.

Sadly, at this point, I feel we're all just going in circles here.

[Xerek]

Actually, the more I think about it, I think we all more agree on most of this then we realize. We share the same expectations. The true point of contention seems to be that I and some others believe that some players out there can't do better, and if they are honestly doing their best and still holding aggro/keeping people alive in casual content, then that's alright. The other side believes it is impossible that those people exist, that everyone can do better then that, that every single tank that doesn't drop into DPS stance for dungeon bosses or DPS while healing is doing so due to laziness. That's the crux, here. The question of whether or not it's possible that players doing that are actually at their limit, unable (not unwilling) to do more.

Nobody here is condoning laziness, or doing the bare minimum if they could be doing better.