Tank dps harrasment

[millktea]

I expect a tank to never use tank stance, unless it's progression and necessary. I expect pld/drk to only use it for tankbusters (and a last resort).

[millktea]

same thing.

not only that, that only really works for the knights and yet, people still don't know how defiance works (and only spells work... skilled healers will use abilities/cooldowns more, which makes it nearly ineffective).

[KaivaC]

Okay...this thread has definitely morphed into several different topics. Which is fine, because I'm at a point where I want to learn something anyhow. For all those stance dancers....since it's generally agreed upon that going DPS stance is the best way to maximize the potential of your tanks after your initial aggro combo, is anybody willing to provide specific advice? For example, I was a DRK main for the longest, but I was terrified of dropping stances if I was MT because I was worried of losing aggro. And that fear was one primary reason I quit tanking entirely. Picking up PLD, but that same fear is still there.

So for DRK and PLD...how should I be doing stance dancing? In dungeons as well as trials? Like, how can you be confident that you will not lose hate because of it? Because to be perfectly honest, now I'm afraid that what the OP experienced will happen to me.

[MoroMurasaki]

same thing.

not only that, that only really works for the knights and yet, people still don't know how defiance works (and only spells work... skilled healers will use abilities/cooldowns more, which makes it nearly ineffective).

Are you trying to say the health bubble a WAR gains in Defiance isn't a form of mitigation? O.o

Doesn't matter what spell or ability brings them up to max health, the healing recieved bonus is gravy compared to being able to eat an unmitigated buster.

[Tint]

Are you trying to say the health bubble a WAR gains in Defiance isn't a form of mitigation? O.o

technically... you are mitigating nothing with a health bubble. however it can help you survive, but only when A the health bubble is full and B you take more damage than the amount of life you have without defiance, wich is almost never the case. the healbuff and the access to Inner Beast is the real advantage of WAR tank stance.

[MoroMurasaki]

technically... you are mitigating nothing with a health bubble. however it can help you survive, but only when A the health bubble is full and B you take more damage than the amount of life you have without defiance, wich is almost never the case. the healbuff and the access to Inner Beast is the real advantage of WAR tank stance.

You are leaving yourself with more health than you would have had after a buster. If something would have taken 40k of your 52k and instead took 40k of your 70k you suddenly have a whole lot more wiggle room. Now you might live through a subsequent crit auto attack or a healer not being on the ball to get you back up right away.

I'm sorry but implying more health on a tank isn't useful is just not true. While the DPS contribution offered by Deliverance very often outweighs this advantage it is still undoubtedly an advantage when you're taking big hits.

[Kaethra]

I get the opposite: I get bullied for dps stance

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

That's why I'm of the mind that DPS ought to do the damage that is needed. Still groups get to decide what they want.

Makes them premade groups sound better and better.

[Reinha]

So for DRK and PLD...how should I be doing stance dancing? In dungeons as well as trials? Like, how can you be confident that you will not lose hate because of it?

In dungeons I go Sword Oath only on bosses, because on trash the tank can benefit from the mitigation of tank stance by pulling a lot. After one or two hate combos you can monitor enmity on the party list so no one can pull aggro without warning.



Trials however depend on the group. I've been to Shinryu ex practice parties where p1 autoattacks kill me as the OT in dps stance, after which I decided to go in tank stance just to see more mechanics and phases. Farm parties are probably more comfortable with everyone prioritizing dps. As a general rule it's good to be in tank stance for tank busters and adds.

[MoroMurasaki]

So for DRK and PLD...how should I be doing stance dancing? In dungeons as well as trials? Like, how can you be confident that you will not lose hate because of it? Because to be perfectly honest, now I'm afraid that what the OP experienced will happen to me.

To tack onto what Reihna said in 8man content with 2 tanks the OT can Provoke/Shirk the boss back on to you, basically taking your enmity lead and then giving it back with a bonus. Helps both of you stay in DPS stance longer. Just be sure not to lock yourself out of an upcoming tank swap with the 'voke CD.

Also I personally feel in 8man individual party members are more responsible for managing their own enmity as needed. I know there have been times on WHM that I pop Lucid not necessarily for the Refresh but just the enmity dump. If someone is pulling off of you it's generally reasonable to ask (or even check) to make sure they were popping Diversion and the like at appropriate times.

[Taika]

Just to make one thing clear. Thats just not true. Content IS designed without Healer DPS in mind.

Want a source?

Don't take that out of the context. Content is only designed without the healer DPS in mind if the group is above the item level available to them when the content is released ("assumed item level" in that quote) and both DDs and tanks are pulling at least 85-90% of their calculated optimal DPS (and I'm fairly certain that calculated optimal DPS is somewhat far from a human player's reach).

Reducing this to "fights are designed to be beaten without healer DPS" is, even if theoretically true in a sense, completely misleading. In reality, if you really leave the group DPS as the DPS and tank players' responsibility, in many fights this means expecting them to be amongst the top 10% of all the players in the whole world, while at the same time you're allowing your healers to be significantly less active and perform in a way lower level. I don't see a reasonable argument for how this kind of distribution of responsibilities could be justified.

For example, OS4 requires a bit more than 23K DPS without limit break. If we assume the healers do 0 DPS and tanks do 5k total, that leaves 4.5k for each DD. That would currently put a RDM or BRD in top 11% of all the RDM/BRD players in the world, and even a DRG in top 21%. And this is now, when we're at item level 340 (with i345 weapons), when the content has been released when we were 20 item levels lower - so when the content was just released it would have required much more from the DDs.

This is one of the reasons why FFlogs is a great tool: if there's a healer or tank player who's thinking that it's not their responsibility to take part in the group DPS effort, they can check the fight's DPS requirements and then see what they're asking from their DDs in terms of performance if they refuse to participate - and at the same time it tells them the potential their job could bring in the group if they would be willing to give that effort.