DRK Consolidated Feedback Thread

[Aana]

The problem is that you're assuming as such. Tangentially yes it can be inferred that they're paying attention with regards to how WAR's been buffed/improved since SB's release, but there's been mum to say about DRK. It's an implied preferential treatment that a portion of the community isn't satisfied with, and SE has not been forthcoming about the matter, both here and in the JP forums as far as I know.

As stated, yes they have been silent. That doesnt change the fact that if they read forums, they see you. If they don't they don't. You cant both read the forums AND not see the bajillion drk threads in every language. The idea that after months of this they have NO IDEA that theres a large constituency that disapproves of Drks current state is utterly crazy. They know. THey just haven't told us what, if anything they are going to do about it. But the idea that they are just ignorant of the issues is silly. The only way they could NOT know is by not actually reading their official forums. So if they don't know its because they don't read. How is posting more in a thing they don't read going to change it? It wont. But if they do read they already know. Its not rocket science.

[Chrono_Rising]

This entire tangent was based entirely on:


Did I ever state no one should post? No. Did I say stop posting about drk changes and ideas? nope. I read the quote to mean drks should up their post count and activity to maintain visibility. I then see over half of the threads in the tank section already are Drk and the posts faaaar outweigh any other discussion topic and and have for months and point out the obvious. Note this is AFTER the noted 'slowdown' of drk discussion. It was significantly higher.

Visibility has been achieved. The people who are paid to read these forums cant realistically have MISSED months of this stuff, and if they actually do (ie don't read forums) then this entire exercise is utterly pointless. In the same breath I state people should continue to post feedback and constructive ideas.

The entire sidebar was only about posting for visibilities sake in an already highly visible subject. Shining light where its already high noon so people notice isn't going to do anything.

My point was actually that we are fighting a battle with people who are posting about whether we need buffs since a DRK was WF and are not talking about actual dark knight issues in the threads that already exist. But I suppose it is easier to cut that initial part of my quote out and cherry pick it to sounds like I'm inciting more threads.

I also remember a time when you said if other tanking classes were asking for unnecessary buffs you would be commenting on those threads. Well we have a thread requesting to buff the already highest dps tank even more, but all I've seen at this point are posts arguing about darks posting about their issues. Its stuff like this that brings back the questions about motives.

[WhyAmIHere]

As stated, yes they have been silent. That doesnt change the fact that if they read forums, they see you. If they don't they don't. You cant both read the forums AND not see the bajillion drk threads in every language. The idea that after months of this they have NO IDEA that theres a large constituency that disapproves of Drks current state is utterly crazy. They know. THey just haven't told us what, if anything they are going to do about it. But the idea that they are just ignorant of the issues is silly. The only way they could NOT know is by not actually reading their official forums. So if they don't know its because they don't read. How is posting more in a thing they don't read going to change it? It wont. But if they do read they already know. Its not rocket science.

I can dismantle your point in one sentence.

WAR and DRK have been complaining since SBs release about class dissatisfaction, but only WARs were ever mentioned by SE to be buffed.

[Aana]

I can dismantle your point in one sentence.

WAR and DRK have been complaining since SBs release about class dissatisfaction, but only WARs were ever mentioned by SE to be buffed.

What does that prove? What are you even asserting? That complaining on forums works? If that's the case why has drk been overlooked even though it has orders of magnitude more posts than anything else for much longer a time? That entirely confirms my point that more posts wont somehow bring awareness when months of it already hasn't. Something else? Could you be more specific because I don't follow what youre trying to say.

[shao32]

What does that prove? What are you even asserting? That complaining on forums works? If that's the case why has drk been overlooked even though it has orders of magnitude more posts than anything else for much longer a time? That entirely confirms my point that more posts wont somehow bring awareness when months of it already hasn't. Something else? Could you be more specific because I don't follow what youre trying to say.

its easy, just "we are looking on it" simple and easy, and SE was unable to say just simple words, so they dont care unleash is a WAR crying.

its so hard keep a minimun of comunication with us? we was adresing this problems for 6 damm months.

[Ekimmak]

You know, a weird thought came to me. The worst of DRK's SB nerfs may have been completely unintentional.

Pushing the Role skill system forward and bringing WAR down from it's mandatory utility standpoint is what ripped a lot of the survivability from DRK.

[TouchandFeel]

You know, a weird thought came to me. The worst of DRK's SB nerfs may have been completely unintentional.

Pushing the Role skill system forward and bringing WAR down from it's mandatory utility standpoint is what ripped a lot of the survivability from DRK.

I'd say that is partially true.

In 3.X DRK was made up of a bunch of janky, mismatched bits that were barely held together by Band-Aids and bubble-gum, but it was held together just enough to provide something playable.

In 4.X, for the sake of stream-lining and cleaning up the jobs through things like the role action system and the blanket stripping out of certain ability types and effects from jobs, the weird junk holding together DRK's kit got shook loose.

Now I don't have a problem with cleaning up junk, but the problem comes when SE saw the messy pile of broken pieces that was once DRK and instead of picking it up and trying to find a way to put it back together again, just swept it into a pile, then under the rug and called it a day.

[Chrono_Rising]

What does that prove? What are you even asserting? That complaining on forums works? If that's the case why has drk been overlooked even though it has orders of magnitude more posts than anything else for much longer a time? That entirely confirms my point that more posts wont somehow bring awareness when months of it already hasn't. Something else? Could you be more specific because I don't follow what youre trying to say.

Because there is also the matter of trying to help those who think the class is fine see why it really isn't. There is a community issue as well as a developer issue. The only way for people to get informed is to keep the conversations alive and hope that they spend the time to read the info that has been posted.

Months of people talking about TBN in and out, people still post that it is an OP utility.

I know that in one of the many threads, a dark knight flat out asked why people thought the class was in such bad shape. This was not long ago, they genuinely didn't know.

Despite the posts and conversations and analysis, not everyone has been reached. And voices saying that the class is fine only means that we need to keep the conversation going, because it isn't fine and it isn't balanced.

[WhyAmIHere]

What does that prove? What are you even asserting? That complaining on forums works? If that's the case why has drk been overlooked even though it has orders of magnitude more posts than anything else for much longer a time? That entirely confirms my point that more posts wont somehow bring awareness when months of it already hasn't. Something else? Could you be more specific because I don't follow what youre trying to say.

An open mouth gets fed, so yes.
Let's do a run-down of the changes, patch by patch, to tanks, shall we?

4.01 gave us:
-Increased enmity for all tanks. (This was so damn needed. 'Member back when SB first launched and everyone was complaining about losing aggro all the time? Yeah, I do.)
-WAR: heavy swing's TP Cost lowered by 10.
-DRK: Bloodspiller potency increased by 20.

next up is 4.05:
-PLD: Cost for swapping oaths removed; Holy Spirit 30pot nerf
-WAR: Cost for swapping stances removed; 20pot buff to Path; Unchained/IR lost it's gauge cost; Cyclone gained it's sustain effect
-DRK: SE got a 20pot buff; MP absorb added to Quietus

now onto 4.06a, and of note this only affected PvP (seeing as 4.06 did nothing for tanks):
-PLD: Shield bash's stun duration reduced 1s; Cover costs +5 more gauge; ShO %'s changed to 25% (damage dealt/taken)
-WAR: bonus 500 HP given; onslaught became a 2s stun; Defiance %'s changed to 25% (max HP, hp restored via heals, and damage dealt)
-DRK: power slash "Reduction to target's HP recovered by healing magic changed from 20% to 10%;" Grit's %'s changed to 25% (damage taken/dealt)

and now, the latest of patches to provide any adjustments, 4.1:
-WAR: SiO is now a raid-wide shield; Cyclones HP absorption increased; and another copy-paste from the patch notes w/ regards to Fell Cleave, Decimate, and Inner Release: "Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone, and Unchained will now be replaced by these actions when using Deliverance. As such, they can no longer be set to the hotbar."

In response to the bolded sections of your post i quoted:
Yes. Making posts about what to fix can and does work, when the developers can clearly address problem areas. So far, a consensus has been reached that Shadow Wall needs either a shorter recast, or a longer duration, and that Dark Passenger needs either a potency increase, or it's MP cost reduced, as best I have kept track of here. There is also mention of increasing the duration of TBN to 6 or 7 seconds, but even that isn't a 100% consensus. But, of note: WAR has received more attention overall compared to PLD and DRK with regards to buffs in the current cycle of patches, and yet this still is not enough.

Another issue is the methods of playing each of the classes, and how they're played. By how they're played, I mean with regards to a hardcore, midcore, and casual audience. PLD's a safe bet overall with how the class is built, so the risk/reward of mistakes are not too severe to it's overall performance.
WAR has it's power spikes, and mistakes for improper play can be bad, but on a casual level it still don't fully detract from how the class is now played after it's buffs, and how it's kit is designed.
Where I see an issue with DRK is the conflict between the audiences. The casual player won't see anything inherently wrong with it, and if they do complain it'll be parroted complaints from the more mid-to-high tier players, and that it just feels like it's kit is too simple. (I say this as a self-proclaimed casual/midcore player, so disclosure, this isn't fully my stance, but my interpretation of the casual mindset.) The midtier player will take note of how unrewarding it is to play effectively, and the differences in mitigation it provides compared to PLD/WAR; the hardcore players will mention it's overall lack in DPS and the cost/reward element of MP and blood, and how blood is currently used.

SE made DRK a hot mess by design. Trying to fix this mess will take time, as it's not a simple fix like SiO was to WAR. Constructive feedback provided by the community, in whatever capacity, is much better than nothing at all, and infinitely better than "[x] sucks plz nerf." I don't think anyone's expecting a change right this minute, but given the fact that SE 1) Addressed the changes to aggro generation before buffing it, 2) addressed the changes to the gauge costs being removed before implementing them, and 3) addressed the issues with SiO before changing them; I feel it's safe to say we want to know that 1) the problems are being looked at, and that 2) work is being done to improve the class as a whole. Even a simple "we hear you" from a community rep would suffice. Sure we'd get the usual "are we there yet?!" posts asking about when those changes are coming, but knowing that they are in fact coming at all is much better than wondering if they're going to come at all.

[SyzzleSpark]

I'm amazed at the people that will post in these threads with no possible motive other than to be contrarian and discredit people asking for buffs for the current most poorly designed tank. What do they hope to gain?