Built-in Parsers

[BigRed5392]

I feel like this (the carrying comment) is being implied by some people on the anti-parser side of things though. Specifically the idea that if a group fails something it is by default the entire group's fault.

it is that is how teamwork/group games work. It is a domino effect.

If someone makes a mistake, recover from it.

What ppl do is vindictive stuff, "oh you made a mistake im not healing you" so that is 1 less person dealing damage, which makes the mob slower to die causing the tank to take more damage. causing healers to over work. All healer had to do was cure the dead person before they died.

instead of letting hp stay low heal people up. Job is to heal so... heal.

everyone should take responsibility for a fight going south. as the point is to work as a team, not solo in a group.

teamwork in rpg/mmorpg is about covering each others weakness and promoting each other strengths. How come in this same game the JP do this, yet NA don't?

[Dualgunner]

Can't believe this is still going. . .

It's not about what information it can or can't provide.
It's not about whether it will help or not.
It's not even about how it will allow bad people to do bad things, or not allow lazy players to be lazy.

Biggest reason we're not likely to get it is because the possibility of even a personal parser being reverse engineered and used as it was NOT intended. And that's straight from The Man himself. He knows who he's dealing with. Are we all likely to do that? No. But let's not act like it's neither impossible, nor wouldn't happen.

This isn't shortsightedness on SE's part. This is actually them looking ahead and preventing a bigger problem with a small fix.

. . .Wish they'd have done that with the Feast chat ban. . .

hell i even said that and all ppl want are links XD

Yes, I want links. Citations to back up your statements and knowledge of what they could possibly reverse engineer from a parser.

HyoMin has a great response too: give it a read.

So, we figure out from a reverse engineered parser what a given abilities %AP and %WD contributions are? Wait, no, potency already standardizes that...

Our actual damage? ...That's shown on the screen and in our battle logs.

Damage rate? ...Can technically be calculated by hand via timestamps...

Our in-encounter crit rates? ...DoT ticks aside, that's in our battle logs and can be calculated by hand.

PPM? We use true RNG, not RPPM, so this is not estimable outside of the same information we get from our tooltips.

The actual effects of our secondary stats? We already have these spreadsheeted, and would transparency really be so abhorrent? (Also, even this has no reason to be revealed by a parser.)

I can see why SE wouldn't want to open up a slew of api's that third-party addons can then use to check for and report incoming attacks, etc., in what few ways they cannot already (e.g. from /say or /yell cues, though we already have the tech to do that, just no update), but a parser is just not the gateway for any of those.

Take a look at the breakdowns for WoW's own competition with its addons: different devices reveal distinctly different components. All that a parser can reveal, has already been revealed -- not even by third-party parsers, but by the game itself.

[SDaemon]

snip

Personal responsibility is a thing. Part of being on a team is owning up to your own mistakes and yes, in this game your mistakes can cause the entire group to fail with no hope of recovering the run.

[Lambdafish]

If someone makes a mistake, recover from it.

This is a very idealistic statement that has no bearing on actual scenario. Case in point:

I had to disband an O2S run the other day because the BLM was almost being outDPSed by the SCH and we kept hitting enrage. While it is group content, the rest of the group should not have to (if it is even possible) pick up the slack from that. We would have had no idea and kept beating at it without a parser. Oh, and this was weekly clear, and the BLM had the clear (presumably on another job) before you say that I'm not letting the BLM improve.

instead of letting hp stay low heal people up. Job is to heal so... heal.

everyone should take responsibility for a fight going south. as the point is to work as a team, not solo in a group.

This doesn't sound like you saying everyone is accountable, this is you saying that a DPS is not accountable for their poor DPS/repeated deaths, and it is the healer's job to compensate. Have a reality check, healers are not gods and they cannot be expected to carry beyond what the content allows. The point is to work EQUALLY as a team, an underperforming DPS is not working as part of the team.

[Nezia]

This entire "anti-parser" crusade just makes no sense to me.

See, let's not pretend that players using 3rd party parsers is a very rare thing. Almost every single group(even in dungeons) has at least one person running a parser. So all that not having a built-in parser creates is a disadvantageous enviroment for ps4 players and PC players who can not run parsers since they can be kinda buggy at times(there is a friend of mine who can not get ACT to work no matter what).

Also, a couple of weeks ago I was on a O2s pug group and we had two 2~3% wipes in a roll for not meeting the enrage timer. I myself was running ACT and I could see that, although the group's damage was nothing too impressive there was a monk struggling to get past the 1.8k dps marker even without dying once. The group leader also was running a parser and stated that the monk was not doing his job and kicked him, then we pugged another dps and the boss was dead on the next try.

What I mean here is: without a parser we would have no way of knowing where the group's flaw was. And with no hints of how to correct it the group would just disband and 7 players would have to waste time looking for another group when they already were in an almost perfectly fine group.

I have said this, other people have said this, but let me put this here again: In wow parsers have been a thing for a very long time, and usually as long as one is not doing like 50% less than everyone else and the dps meters are being met no one actually talks shit about how the group dps is doing. Ofc it's a different thing if you are looking for a more serious group to clear mythic content, but for lfr/normal/late patch heroics? Never seen anyone say a thing unless in the cases I described above.

[BigRed5392]

Personal responsibility is a thing. Part of being on a team is owning up to your own mistakes and yes, in this game your mistakes can cause the entire group to fail with no hope of recovering the run.

all mistakes are recoverable, no game content has a no win scenario. so yes everyone needs to own up.

like I stated JP players don;t kick 1 person after 3 wipes they vote abandon if no amount of discussion improves a run. no hate, no rude words. they don't sigle out 1 player, they ask what the group did wrong, and how the group can improve.

if 1 person was really sat fault, then the other 7 can do fine w/o them and clear the run after they died. but that is not the case. Each person makes a mistake, or delibralty does something to everyone else.

like a healer getting upset a person stood in an aoe dying.

[Deithwen]

all mistakes are recoverable, no game content has a no win scenario.

Are we playing the same game ? I can find so many examples where this statement is wrong, but I just feel you don't know what you're talking about.

[BigRed5392]

This doesn't sound like you saying everyone is accountable, this is you saying that a DPS is not accountable for their poor DPS/repeated deaths, and it is the healer's job to compensate. Have a reality check, healers are not gods and they cannot be expected to carry beyond what the content allows. The point is to work EQUALLY as a team, an underperforming DPS is not working as part of the team.

don't use the word carry, its pretty childish. again jp players don;t single out. I was using an example if a domino effect due to players choices.

if everyone makes bad choices the runs goes south. the run is a group effort, if healers are not healing, they are not being a team player. If tanks are not tanking they are not being a team player.

if dps the group is taking to much damage a healer shouldn't be dpsing they should be healing.


this is why i don't get the NA/english community. they act vindictive in df/pf groups. There is little to no dialog, lil to no leadership, lil to no assistent.

just in fighting with in groups using juvenile terms like "bads" and "carry" which come off pretty bad. :/

i just personally have a different view point, and yet rather then a discussion im told "you wrong, you want a carry, stop being bad"
yet im expect to hear hyperbole, and scenario people brought on themselves, because they like to name/shame ppl.

i played on tonberry for a good while, and endgame content over there has a much better environment. jp have a community set of standards people for the most part follow.

pf is for practice, df is for clears. after 3 wipes with no improvement the run is vote abandon, no kicking or anything. At the start of runs the leader will macro a strategy. And people follow it best they can. If 1 person messes up they try to recover. if they wipe they communicate what the possible issues are, no name/shame. And they discuss what they can do better. They try again. Most of the time, they win. but again if they loose, they discuss more to weed out the issues. again most of the time they will win. If not and they doe again its vote abandon. No one is called out.

this is how NA community does it from my experiences

you go into content expected to know what to do, no communication to the strategy. If a person messes up (possible not knowing the strat, or had a lil lag) they are told off and healer doesn't heal them to "teach them a lesson". The dps die as a result, which means no dps. Which domino to everyone dying. Which then people say stuff like wtf, stop dying, you suck, you bad. and kicking the possible "bad player". This type of environment goes against teamwork.

communicating strats goes a long way to help, letting people know exactly what is expected them. People can watch videos till their blue in the face, but that doesn't always help as each video uses a different strat, team comp. some mechanics get skipped so when it doesn't get skipped people panic.

I think we as a community should be more open for communication instead of saying childish buzz words. cut out the name and shaming, as that does nothing but bring the team down. i think we as a community should stop the forced skip mechanic, and actually learn the mechanics, which again goes a long way.

People like to blame 1 person for low dps simple because they die to a mechanic they can't do, so yes everyone is at fault. If you don't know how to handle a mechanic, how are you not also at fault?

Also i have yet done any content jp/na Primal/Aether where we died to enrage. Most deaths I see are from healers not healing.

This entire "anti-parser" crusade just makes no sense to me.

See, let's not pretend that players using 3rd party parsers is a very rare thing. Almost every single group(even in dungeons) has at least one person running a parser. So all that not having a built-in parser creates is a disadvantageous enviroment for ps4 players and PC players who can not run parsers since they can be kinda buggy at times(there is a friend of mine who can not get ACT to work no matter what).

Also, a couple of weeks ago I was on a O2s pug group and we had two 2~3% wipes in a roll for not meeting the enrage timer. I myself was running ACT and I could see that, although the group's damage was nothing too impressive there was a monk struggling to get past the 1.8k dps marker even without dying once. The group leader also was running a parser and stated that the monk was not doing his job and kicked him, then we pugged another dps and the boss was dead on the next try.

What I mean here is: without a parser we would have no way of knowing where the group's flaw was. And with no hints of how to correct it the group would just disband and 7 players would have to waste time looking for another group when they already were in an almost perfectly fine group.

I have said this, other people have said this, but let me put this here again: In wow parsers have been a thing for a very long time, and usually as long as one is not doing like 50% less than everyone else and the dps meters are being met no one actually talks shit about how the group dps is doing. Ofc it's a different thing if you are looking for a more serious group to clear mythic content, but for lfr/normal/late patch heroics? Never seen anyone say a thing unless in the cases I described above.

you handles that situation poor, you clearly state the group itself was not doing good, but shame 1 player, by just kicking them. Why not communicate with the player as to why damage was low? (which is not hard to tell w/o a parser) was he laging? at any point you could have did some communication as to why yall were wiping.

tbh it more looks like your group got "carried" by 1 dps. you just used the monk as a scapegoat. so the group is equally to blame if no communication happen. MMo have existed before the invent of parser and other addon. How did they beat endgame content?

like how did ff11 community do endgame?? most of the player base was on console. and yes content had enrage timers you can tell if people are slacking with out a parser. And tbh that is not the right way to use it, at any point you guys could have communicated, as as questions. Offer tips.

how can people get better if people like you shut them out? kick them out? don't communicate. so ya your group was equally at fault.

a;so, not everyone plays WoW I have for a lil and disliked it. my g/f played it and quit because the community was crude. She was called lazy and bad for looking for a guild, and each guild required a list of addons. She stated each time "i share this pc, my family said no downloading extra stuff" she got insult after insult, she never even got to group content, her max was 46 warlock. the the simple fact she wasn't able to DL addon, she was called lazy, bad, looking for a carry.

never assume people played WoW, never assume people plated an mmo where parser was a thing.

this isn't rare either, creators like WoWcrendor would joke about how bad the community is.

[LalaRu]

If you don't mind me asking, which game was this?

I saw something that is not parsing but gear scoring, in wow, and people were kicked out for any silly reason because the "overall score" wasn't good enough. I don't think the same people, that kicks out others for not scoring good, will stop doing that when numbers comes out from a parser.

Returning to XIV, today we see Susano parties with i330 req, and o1s "fflogs" run for the epeen, so it is evident that making a parser "official" will unleash all the worse from people that today are refraining doing that, because parsers aren't to be mentioned in the game.

Last but not least, all the controversy this very thread shows off, is another reason to backup the "no parser" policy.

[Aster_E]

Parsers are tools. Tools in good hands make for good results; tools in the hands of children, young and old, make for dangers and drama.

Don't feed into the bad crowd with the need for in-game parsing, or allowing douchy behavior, but don't confuse this with me saying that parsing should never happen at all. If someone wants to use the tool for their own personal improvement, then the more power to them.

What truly matters is that this is a game. Have fun.

So no, no in-game parsers. Ever.