Built-in Parsers

[technole]

I don't need to draw a line in the sand. I back things I feel are pragmatic. Player based barriers or anything that will cause players to group together and remove another player for performance is bad. If the game does it, then there's not feel bad involved.

Lines in the sand already happens today. That is why a raid group puts someone through a "trial" if they want to join the group.

Can't make a DPS check in a high-end raid via party finder? It's likely someone is watching. You don't even have to say anything as leader, you leave the instance and just boot the problem. There, no one broke any rules.

[Dualgunner]

That's your opinion, and I respect that. But an opinion is not a good argument point because my opinion, that an rpg represents growth through higher numbers should display those numbers, is equally valid. Then what? We have opinions and nothing gets accomplished.

[Hitsuzen]

Nothing needs to be accomplished. Square Enix takes a sum of our opinions into considerations then makes changes or doesn't in order to keep an optimal amount of people subscribed. I don't agree with your stance and you don't agree with mine, but we don't need to really agree. Just support your stance and perhaps it may become the majority stance and influence SE eventually, or perhaps my stance will remain strong.

[DeaconMoore]

What if the parsers were built into the Training Dummies and that's the only place they worked? That a way there's no parsing in dungeons, NO MALICE towards anyone, and you still get the parses to help figure out your best rotation? I dont know if something like that is possible, I'm not tech savvy or anything, but that would be a way to solve it, eh?

Parsers only working on training dummies would level the field for the console players, yes. Assuming you mean to break ACT and any other 3rd party parsers in the process.

It'd really piss of most the pro parser crowd though honestly.

[MoroMurasaki]

And I'm being told people in here would too, simply because they feel that 1100 isn't doing their fair share, which I don't agree with at all. If all DPS needed to be 3000 and he was only doing 1100 so the rest had to do exponentially more, then yes I would absolutely consider that 1100 being carried and should leave that group without delay.

I find this whole train of thought inherently distressing based on the idea of skipping mechanics.

The most recent, simple example of this I can think of is Susano EX. As the fight goes on longer he throws worse and worse combos at you. I was doing it with a combo of FC members and pugs at the time and invariably people would have trouble with the whirlpool>churning>whirlpool sequence that happens toward the end.

It got so bad we were inviting our pf members to our discord for callouts so that we could not wipe to that specific mechanic, especially because even if my cohealer and I lived through it if we lost 3/4 DPS to it and had no mp for rezzes we just couldn't get everyone back up in time.

Know what the answer was? More DPS so we never saw that set of mechanics. One FC member swapped from mnk to BLM for mana shift duty, my cohealer took the brunt of the healing on AST and I focused on DPS as WHM.

So no, if one of our DPS's did technically enough to beat enrage that doesn't secure a clear necessarily and in a farm situation specifically you are going to want to skip nasty mechanics when you can to minimize three chance of a wipe.

Basically "the best defense is a good offense".

[Bobs]

If skipping mechanics is the answer then there is something wrong with the fight to begin with.

In FF11 some of the really late game stuff (75 cap) less than 1% of the population could do because people used a Bard Rotation (which turns a 30min fight into a 30sec fight). There is nothing fun about winning a fight via a 30sec rotation.

If someone meets the requirements and are not dying to mechanics its quite unfair to judge them on not being able to skip stuff. Some things are out of peoples control. DPS is an RNG game in FF14 for the most part. The reason SAM pulls consistent numbers is because none of their abilities are locked out. Its why so many people play RDM and SAM, no RNG.

I'm not going to try to pull numbers out of thin air but I bet the only difference between a 3800 player and a 4400 player is RNG.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And I agree that PF leaders are allowed to make whatever standards they want. But I simply can't get behind this notion that just because someone is performing better than someone else in the group and that person in question is performing their fair share of the DPS requirements burden that they are at fault in any way or should be kicked.

Though I suppose its that we have differing thoughts on what constitutes someone's fair share of the DPS burden.

And that's fair. Likewise, I can't get behind the idea of just doing the bare minimum, though I wouldn't necessarily kick someone for low damage if I were pugging. It depends if I just want to clear or push numbers. Everyone has different standards though and I don't think that would change if parses were made public.

Before I say something, let's me say that I don't have anything against a parser itself. I had used it in another games, and it's a great personal tool to quickly identify quirk and improve yourself. When someone I run with post a fflog for me to look at, it's a great piece to analyze your performance. But having said that. I also fully understand why the developer refuses to put one in game, because ... to put it bluntly - it can make people really stupid. .

While I don't disagree with your overall sentiment nor its conclusion, I would argue none of those scenarios are parse exclusive. Per your first instance, that is clearly someone looking to shift the blame away from their own poor performance. Take away ACT and I guarantee they're still blaming the healers. Same goes for the second. That WHM wouldn't change how they play even if ACT were deleted tomorrow because, frankly, they're a narrow-minded twat who refuses to see beyond their own parse. It sucks, truly, it does, but people will behave like this regardless of whether parses are allowed or somehow banned completely. I, personally, don't think it would have much impact on the toxic side, though I do like the idea of a trial period mentioned earlier.

[MoroMurasaki]

If skipping mechanics is the answer then there is something wrong with the fight to begin with.

In FF11 some of the really late game stuff (75 cap) less than 1% of the population could do because people used a Bard Rotation (which turns a 30min fight into a 30sec fight). There is nothing fun about winning a fight via a 30sec rotation.

If someone meets the requirements and are not dying to mechanics its quite unfair to judge them on not being able to skip stuff. Some things are out of peoples control. DPS is an RNG game in FF14 for the most part. The reason SAM pulls consistent numbers is because none of their abilities are locked out. Its why so many people play RDM and SAM, no RNG.

I'm not going to try to pull numbers out of thin air but I bet the only difference between a 3800 player and a 4400 player is RNG.

How is it unfair to judge someone on not being able to skip a mechanic if the mechanic is a serious impediment to reliably clearing the fight? Seeing less mechanics means less mistakes which means less wipes, I don't know what is hard to understand about that.

I don't see how that FFXI bit plays into this at all. There is a big difference in between pushing DPS to skip the minute or so before enrage and cheesing a fight from 30 minutes to 30 seconds. That isn't what's being discussed here at all.

If a group wants to kick someone for DPS that doesn't meet their standards that is their right. If their standards are rooted in a logical desire to skip a problematic mechanic/combo (Soar anyone?) all the better.

This entitled mentality that every player is entitled to never get kicked without huge mistakes on their part baffles me. As someone mentioned a few pages ago you can get kicked for being a catboy, different playstyles makes it so every party is free to kick anyone for anything. Wouldn't it be better if instead of kicking them without a reason at least the person being kicked was told "Sorry, your DPS isn't going to get us through enrage/Soar/ whatever. Shoot for closer to 3k, thanks!" and then they could go to a dummy, parse themselves and figure out what is holding them back?

The irony here is that people are arguing against parsers on behalf of less experienced or generally poorer players when those players stand to benefit the most from the implimentation of a sanctioned, in-game parser. Elite players are parsing already but having a meter to compare your damage to in every fight would be a huge leg up for all PS4 players (myself included) and PC players who don't care enough to run ACT.

Everyone has different standards though and I don't think that would change if parses were made public.

This. So much of this.

All parsers are doing is making information more readily available to the playerbase as a whole. To say that that is bad because some people use it to be rude is like saying hunt linkshells are bad because some people use them to find hunts and early pull.

[Bobs]

snip

I think the real question here is why are you queueing in the Duty Finder. If your standards are so high then why don't you have a full static. You are setting yourself up for failure dude. I mention FF11 because we HAD a full static. Everyone knew what to do and there wasn't a problem.

"Oh a random guy queueing did not meet my standards" NO KIDDING!

[Shurrikhan]

No support. We don't need more reasons for people to start kicking people out of groups just because a number was lacking in THEIR own opinion. I know what your reasoning is behind wanting it added, but people without a doubt would use it to just be crap to other players. We've seen it before, we'll see it again.

So you would rather they kick on the suspicion that a number was lacking in their own opinion? That's the only change here.

Assumption -> objective knowledge.

Yes, CD alignment, fight length, and so forth will have effects that will skew these numbers, but anyone who actually uses a parser regularly will already be aware of these dynamics, and adjust their expectation accordingly.

You'll frequently see someone kicked because their enmity, on average when the tank's tabbing between mobs, is a third of the other DPS's despite their having never used an enemy-reducing tool. The means to kick are already there. This just gives more accurate and precise data, so that there's a reduced chance of someone being kicked for the wrong reason.