Built-in Parsers

[Shai]

What's always been baffling to me about the parser issue is ...
... if they do not want parsing, why are the numbers there at all?

It's like saying -- We know people want to know their damage output, but god damn it you will have to read through an entire log of garbage to find it.
If they don't want parsing, they simply don't need an actual combat log from which you can parse. It serves no other purpose.
People can still see their big numbers pop up on the screen to give them little boosts of endorphin. They just don't have them in log format.

It's a serious conundrum.

[Shai]

You know youre greedy when you start removing the components that make up a game just so you don't have to spend a tiny fraction of your million(plus some change) monthly subs to hire people that moderate and enforce the tos and general behavioral policies.

The problem with this mindset is the millions of subs aren't paying for QOL improvements in the game - a fraction of them are. The lion's share of sub money is going toward making stupid junk like FFXV VR Fishing -- cause the Fishing in FFXV was so good that they needed to jump on the VR bandwagon with it. You can't think that our money only goes to improving our lives in FFXIV. It's like thinking all your taxes are there to improve your life personally. It goes to the whole company (or government in my analogy) and gets appropriated as they see fit.

[akaneakki]

Just because someone is doing 5k+ DPS and they are only doing 3k+ DPS doesn't mean they should be shamed or made felt like they are being carried, not if the fight only requires a personal DPS of ~2k. (The numbers are figurative, the situation is my driving point.)

That's true. I dont think or ever should let people have the shame on them for doing 3k vs 5k. I mean if a fight reuqires dps to be around 4.8k each and one is doing about 3k, this is counted without great tank and healer dps, the person is lacking the damage it's an issue. However, i feel many people needs to be guided for damage and ofc like someone said already, even if a parser do happens, doesn't mean that a person will actually use it correct and then get better at dpsing. They must be first willing to try get better, which I think many don't do at all, in my honest opinion. But I do think if they do see how ''low'' or ''bad'' they do, they might be feeling shame and try to get better. In worse scenario they might feel so bad and not be encouraged to try anymore.

[DeaconMoore]

Similarly, if that underperforming person would be able to use a parser, they would already know they'd be doing less than they should, and could leave the group by themself to get more practice before joining another group

Heh. How exactly would they do that though? You only want the parser for end game groups.

I'm talking about PF group where the requirements are clearly set by the content (enrage or other DPS check) and / or party leader ("must bring good enough DPS to beat enrage") for content where those things matter (Extremes, Savage, Ultimate). I've clearly specified this in my previous posts too, that this should be the content where the official parser is even added (as an optional feature for premade groups).


We're not talking about solo content, but group content, where each individual's performance has a direct and major influence on the whole team's performance, to the point of the team being unable to clear content because of one individual member. Because of this, everyone in the team should know each other's numbers. And once again, only in the content where this is the case: Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate. And as an optional feature for premade groups.

Again, I think I'm probably argued against by people whom this suggestion wouldn't even concern in any way, since they're not even doing this content in the first place. So why not let those people who do the content and need this and want this to have the option of using it?

You and others also keep pointing out the usefulness of the parser for learning so...? Those people are kinda just SoL huh?

Isolating its use is a no go.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And as I never said I'm anti-parse (i'm pro), I also never said someone shouldn't get called out, nor did I say they should aggressively get called out for that matter. I just said it's going to happen. It just doesn't happen now so much because the first rule of it is you don't talk about it.

And I disagree. The number of people I see whining over poor DPS only to see their DPS among the worst is astonishing. Toxic people will be toxic regardless. ACT won't lead to sudden wide-spread harassment unless SE decides to ignore harassment complaints. The issue often is people don't want to hear they aren't perfect, especially if its their mistakes causing wipes.

I <3 this reply. While I don't think stubborn people who knowingly join parties out of their league should get carried, they are probably the minority of the low DPS players who get slandered. I stated in a previous reply how much better it would be if people would take the time to identify why a party member is under-performing and let them know. Nicely. You don't have to keep these players in your party but at least dismiss them with friendly advice.

The irony is a lot of people will depending on the type of PF you join. What tends to happen is someone joins a farm or enrage party, cannot keep up and then complains when players in said party get frustrated with them. That all said, Whiskey's post highlights the precise reason parses are invaluable for self-improvement. You just aren't going to see the differences between raid utility, buffs and how best to utilize them.

Depends. Is that 20% lower still within the required DPS to clear? If so then the issue clearly isn't with the party's DPS and they are failing mechanics. However, a group will likely just kick that 20% less DPS in favor of trying to push out more DPS in hopes of winning. As players are able to push out greater numbers they will gradually expect the overall community to do the same regardless whether or not the content requires it.

Why, pray tell, is this a bad thing? Even fine-tuning mechanical awareness, you are still asking the remaining seven players to pick up the slack for someone else. Why should I potentially have to pot or should the healers have to break well over 1,500+ each because a Monk can't deal decent damage relative to their ilvl? 20% isn't exactly insignificant either. Should the group fix mechanical errors and deaths? Absolutely. But just brute forcing through is why you'll see Samurai pulling 2,600 DPS in Neo, which is absurdly low yet they have little incentive to improve if it gets them a clear. "Just grit and bear it" breeds a complacent mentality and, in my opinion, is why so many players aren't particularly good at the game.

[DeaconMoore]

And I disagree. The number of people I see whining over poor DPS only to see their DPS among the worst is astonishing. Toxic people will be toxic regardless. ACT won't lead to sudden wide-spread harassment unless SE decides to ignore harassment complaints. The issue often is people don't want to hear they aren't perfect, especially if its their mistakes causing wipes.

Oh? Are you honestly telling me you have no fear of getting banned and have no hesitation talking in ingame chat with someone you just met about their crappy dps right now?

[Taika]

Heh. How exactly would they do that though? You only want the parser for end game groups.

You and others also keep pointing out the usefulness of the parser for learning so...?

I don't understand what do you think I'm saying? I am talking about endgame groups. And people joining them without being able to clear the content they're joining (in cases when the group is aiming for clear, not practice). I'm fairly certain it's extremely rare to see a person performing so miserably they're unable to clear a leveling dungeon or an expert dungeon or another story fight (DPS wise anyway, of course they can fail all mechanics, but in that case it's pretty obvious for everyone involved). Parsers are not needed for story content (or anything else than Savage, Ultimate or extremes).

Of course in Savage and Extreme learning parties, where the group has no intention of clearing in the first place, even lower-than-acceptable DPS should not be a reason to remove a person from a group, in my opinion (as long as one person is not holding the group back from actually winning). And in learning this content (and Ultimate), specifically optimising one's DPS in said content, parser is an extremely useful tool.

Edit: I'll try to make my stance more clear: if a person joins a clear party for extremes / Savage / Ultimate, I will expect them to be able to do good enough DPS so that the party can actually clear the fight (while also handling the mechanics well enough, of course). If a person is continuously failing to do that and is holding the team back (and not because of other party members), I think it's perfectly alright to tell them their performance isn't up to the required level just yet and they should get some practice. In a situation like this, when whole group is handing the mechanics correctly, there aren't deaths, and the only thing that's killing the group is enrage, a group parser is really handly, because it shows who's (continuously!) unable to carry their own weight. But if it's a learning party, and the phase the group is learning has no enrage to wipe to, I couldn't care less about anyone's DPS (since they simply can't hold the group back). In this case though, seeing your own numbers - and being able to compare them to the rest of your group - is really useful, since while you're learning the fight itself, you can also learn to optimise your DPS performance in it, thus being able to carry your weight when it's time for you to join the clear parties.

Just last week I experienced example number one, where I was joining a couple of OS4 clear parties with a DD (who I didn't know at all) who was continuously pulling over 1K less DPS than anyone else. Those groups would have been unable to clear the fight with that person even if everyone had handled all mechanics 100% perfectly (because it was everyone else's first clear too and people were struggling with handling their own part, unable to carry others). Too bad they seemed to have no clue and no one was able to tell them they need to check their rotation for the fight in addition to knowing the mechanics. I would have much rather told that person nicely that they're doing really well with the mechanics but need to optimise their DPS better before joining another clear party than just watch them being silently kicked from the two groups I was with them. That might have actually helped them, I doubt the silent kicks did...

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Oh? Are you honestly telling me you have no fear of getting banned and have no hesitation talking in ingame chat with someone you just met about their crappy dps right now?

I never said that. You insinuated publicly available parses would essentially open the flood gates for toxic behavior. It won't, because people who are toxic don't need to bring up ACT to go off on someone. If I really want to call anyone out, I'll just say "I watched your rotation and you're doing it wrong." They can say I'm parsing all they fancy but GMs won't do a thing unless you specifically mention numbers. Believe me, I have seen some very passive aggressive to downright hostile responses yet they aren't bringing up parse numbers even if it's obvious they have them. Just a few weeks back someone accused a friend of buying her Savage clears because she kept dying in Ala Mhigo due to lag spikes. Like I said, you don't need to run a parse to be a jerk nor will parses necessarily make people jerks.

[SDaemon]

Why, pray tell, is this a bad thing? Even fine-tuning mechanical awareness, you are still asking the remaining seven players to pick up the slack for someone else. Why should I potentially have to pot or should the healers have to break well over 1,500+ each because a Monk can't deal decent damage relative to their ilvl? 20% isn't exactly insignificant either. Should the group fix mechanical errors and deaths? Absolutely. But just brute forcing through is why you'll see Samurai pulling 2,600 DPS in Neo, which is absurdly low yet they have little incentive to improve if it gets them a clear. "Just grit and bear it" breeds a complacent mentality and, in my opinion, is why so many players aren't particularly good at the game.

Why is what a bad thing? Kicking a player for not DPSing on par with the rest of the group, even though their personal DPS is sufficient to make the DPS checks? Why WOULD you kick them? Their DPS is clearly not the issue that is causing the enrage to happen. If it is then they clearly aren't meeting the personal DPS requirement and the point is moot, and he'll need to improve or be replaced. Also, the comment about brute forcing was in regards to them kicking that 20% less DPS player in favor of a DPS that will push higher numbers, even though the original player was doing their fair share of the DPS in order to meet the DPS check.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Why is what a bad thing? Kicking a player for not DPSing on par with the rest of the group, even though their personal DPS is sufficient to make the DPS checks? Why WOULD you kick them? Their DPS is clearly not the issue that is causing the enrage to happen. If it is then they clearly aren't meeting the personal DPS requirement and the point is moot, and he'll need to improve or be replaced. Also, the comment about brute forcing was in regards to them kicking that 20% less DPS player in favor of a DPS that will push higher numbers, even though the original player was doing their fair share of the DPS in order to meet the DPS check.

For the precise reasons I said. Seven other players have to play better to make up the difference for someone who either isn't playing their job properly or messing up. Now I wouldn't necessarily boot them if they aren't dying, but I also can't entirely blame people who don't like carrying. Once again, 20% isn't insignificant. I average roughly 5k+ on Samurai. Using that as a benchmark, you're giving up 1k+ on a job whose sole contribution is high damage. Furthermore, your dichotomy takes away all accountability for personal improvement. DPS checks are generally lax in Savage, at least recently. So basically, do mechanics and if your DPS isn't good, someone else will make up the difference. Why is that acceptable? If all four DPS asked like that, you may not have the DPS anymore.

Now if the group is failing mechanics, you address that issue first. And most people will. I just dislike the mentality of "do the bare minimum." Not to mention, your scenario doesn't really work because if another player can slot in and suddenly you have a clear, damage was the issue.