A Modest Thought

[hellmach]

I completely agree OP but these types of thread always fall upon deaf ears

I just want to talk about it with people and hopefully get SE's attention about it.

[Palamouche]

I still feel like Miste has a point.

Let me explain you why, let's say that we take onto your gearing structure and add more middle man into the process.

Which is going to look something like this :

* Entry (Expert/Tomestone 315)
* New middle man (335)
* EX Primals (With added loots to cover each slots - 355)
* Savage/Ultimate (375)

Now we've solved the problem that you've got with progression, since you will need to grind onto each tier before moving onto the next (For most of the player base that is) but you're not addressing your other concern, which is gear revelance and I'll try to adress why (And even come up with possible solutions !), since you want an never ending incentive to actually gear up, let's say that the new shiny patch is out, let's call it 4.2 for now.

Here are what the rewards will look like (Arbitrary still) :

* Entry (Expert/Tomestone 375)
* New middle man (395)
* EX Primals (415)
* Savage/Ultimate (435)

Which would end up with the same problem that we have now.

Alternatively, I know you could choose to lower the tiers between each (+20 instead of "starting from scratch") but, if you're only going to tackle one of those difficulties in mind, it would also lower the gap of what you're winning between each tier, which would also lower the incentive to tackle upon said difficulty (unless you want to grind all those stairs ), someone (Entry runner) that was going to be trying to do the "New middle man" from my former example could actually ask "Why ?" since he already know that it'll be outdated in 3/6 months time.

There's an interesting argument to be made there by saying that it would encourage "improvement" by itself by putting artificial walls (a.k.a ilevel) in front of it.

By the end of an expansion, your entry ilevel could be at the level of your former savage ilevel which would get reset as soon as you put a foot into the new expansion, getting me to my conclusion (and personal opinion) that fun should be put first and foremost, my entire post isn't going to address everything possible outcomes that would come with such a change (such as "Why should I have these tomestones now?" or "Where does the crafting gear fits in there ?") and I kind of admit that I kinda "hi-jacked" my personal purpose upon writing it (Bad, I know, I know...).

P.S: I actually like the current system more since it doesn't deny me from trying any of the content without grinding all of those artificial stairs, so to speak.

Tl;dr If you actually don't like the content that you're currently doing for what it is there's always going to be a moment where your gear get outdated, it's just a matter of time. (Even in a vertical (or horizontal ?) progression game ? I think that's how you guys calls it.)

[hellmach]

snip

That's not reflective of the system we've had to my knowledge since HW. This is more like it:

Entry is 290 not including accessories
First 3 level 70 dungeons drop 300 gear.
Verity- 310 including weapon
315 is Skallic gear introduced in 3.1
Omega Normal-320 and Susano gives you a 320 weapon and
Creation Tomes/24 Man 330... 330 weapon is locked behind doing O4 normal weekly where you need 7 weeks to get your weapon. You can get one Savage 340 upgrade material per week by doing the 24 man content in 3.1
Shinryu 335 Weapon
Savage 340 and a 345 weapon. You can upgrade tomestone gear with material drops you get here weekly.

Sample Source: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...3&category3=34
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...=1&category3=2

I didn't include crafted. This is the pattern every patch to my knowledge since 3.0. How does this promote a feeling of progression when more difficult content, that intuitively should give you better rewards, only gives a slight advantage against just grinding tomestones in the case of Shinryu or before creation Susano? I also wouldn't mind tomestone grinding if the dungeons actually felt challenging, which they don't (I'm not speaking for Lost Canals because I haven't done it), and I had the feeling that I earned them, which I don't. Hardcore players can get their BiS and casuals can get high ilevels with low effort but where's the middle ground for midcore players who may not be able to do Savage or don't have time to do it but want that feeling of progression when the mid core rewards are barely better then the casual ones?

I can't say you even put forth anything valid because your very sample system isn't reflective of the one we're using now as I proved and it seems as if you think progression... actually getting more powerful in an RPG through challenge is considered "grinding artificial stairs" which sounds outrageous to anyone who's played RPGs. By your logic the grinding of say Sphere points in FF 10, Experience in 9,7,5,6 or earning gear through defeating powerful bosses, finding it in chests or doing exceptional feats like beating a side quest tournament arena are "artificial" stairs. I don't want to assume the worst case scenario because I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but it sounds like you're ok with getting rewarded for barely anything. If that's the case, and excuse my French, how the fuck would that be good game design?

[Palamouche]

Snip

It was never made to be reflective of the system that we're currently using, it is actually a proposed change that would fit within your own desired gearing structure, which is to me more beneficial to the topic at hand, we're discussing (at least it seems) of what problems the current core is encountering, I'm sure you can built something out of what you've said by adding to what I've said.

Secondly, no matter what kind of feelings you're getting out of beating one of those secret boss, in a game like FFXIV or any MMO-RPG for that matters, you're indeed getting more gear to be able to do more of them, if gear wasn't a point that you seemed so adamant to (in first the place) you would not have much problems with the current structure, don't you ? (On that matter, being able to defeat a boss is actually a progression in itself and that's what you could count as reward, what you need to do to get there is what I effectively call "artificial" stairs.)

Lastly, I never said that I was ok by getting rewarded for barely anything, in fact it would be the opposite, I would be ok with not getting rewarded even by doing my best, which is what I aim to be most of the time and this is what I get satisfaction from (Personal improvement).

I feel a little bit "saddened" that what you took of my post were invalided as soon as they were not concording to the current design since you're in for a change and that's what I'm trying to talk about here, what would be the cons/pros about it instead of comparing apple to orange.

[hellmach]

Snip.

I misinterpreted your chart then. Tbf I've been doing a take home stats mid term and it's almost 6 am where I'm at. I'll need to look over your points when my mind clears a bit more. As for my final comments... I mean that's why I wasn't so adamant to just call you out on it and start crying filthy casual or w/e the kids say nowadays. The way you worded it sounded like you wanted something for nothing but I also read it around 4am hopped up on caffeine and pushing through a stats problem so yeah. I also would like to think most people don't want something for nothing.

[Palamouche]

Snip

Hehe that's fine, I'm glad we can come to terms and delve further into your initial subject, I'm also sure that we're agreeing more than what words have told so far .

What need to be discussed right here are what current/different designs are and what could be changed upon them.

I'll start by saying that in my mind, their main pros/cons are basically ease of access vs. sense of progression which is what (some of you) feels like is lacking.

Coming from a WoW background, I never felt like having to do four difficulties to keep your gear up-to-date fun or engaging but in fact it effectively created a disparity in which your ilevel was blocking you from things that you could've been interested in, which in turn reduced the pool of players that you could pick up from.

That is something that I don't feel like happening within current FFXIV system, while yes you could be behind with all of the catch-up features in place you're going to get back into the gear treadmills faster that you would ever have.

Now, that is something that could be solved (and thus, allow to adopt a new design) by having tomestone/crafting gear gated behind actual difficult (mid-core, which would also open an economy in that departement, which I feel like is lacking) content, such as new 4man or in EX Primals.

You also have to think about what kind of signals you're sending to your playerbase when you're effectively saying that investing your time in X is less valuable than in Y, which is not something that I could solve except by having actual ilevel rewards from the same difficulty content. (Such as brutal 4man ranging within the same ilevel of your current Savage) <- I'm still torn on that one, making it rangeable or actual, since creating two venues (or more) to the same path will always lead to the one of least resistance.

[MerleSirlos]

I think I understand your point, but I feel like it's just that time did his thing. You got older, maybe your taste slightly changed, maybe you got very familiar with the core system too fast and are getting bored of the game already and/or maybe the pace of the patches/game doesn't suit you anymore. It is something that is bound to happen but takes different time for each of us.
And I always feels a bit sad when you realise you don't enjoy a game as you used to after a while.

But it also has to do with how games evolved with time. 15-20 years ago in MMORPGs, it used to take months if not years to reach max level, and after that you had to spend at least the same amount of time to get all the pieces of the gear you wanted. You also didn't have access to as much information as we have now on the internet. It was common to see some strange build appear with more or less success on specific scenarios. (how much fun I had with my battle priest where the goal was to drag the fight to kill the opponent slowly while healing myself instead of the usual full magic attack ones where it was only a race on who can kill the other faster)
Time passed, and the leveling process was done shorter and shorter as the majority of players found it boring (which in most game was the case for me too but the ones i enjoyed the most were actually the ones with the more interesting leveling process). The process to get the equipment was also shortened after that, so lifetime of games end up shorter as people want more things faster.
At the same time, solo game went from games where we had a clear linear path from A to B to a more broad system like open world where we got rid of B but you can do whatever you want. B technically still exist as it's now up to the player to define where it is now.
That last part is slowly making its way to MMOs too. We want more different things to do and we also want to do them faster.
Of course that is not the case for everyone. and we live in a time with a huge market, so most of the time it ends up as simply finding the game that suits you better (which is what the "go play something else" should refer to and are sometimes a bit too rude).
It is understandable to want to change something you don't like, but there are also other who like what you don't like. So in the end it's up to the dev to choose which side the want to focus first (because it's not impossible for them to come with something that can satisfy both sometimes).

[Miste]

For some of us the fun is in acquiring the gear and not for it's own sake but knowing that it will make us progressively stronger and be able to take on more difficult bosses and most importantly that you get the feeling that you earned your reward. You then take these rewards and you take on the next big challenge.

Yes, but I already said that savage does what you are asking for. You clear O1S and get better gear and progressively stronger then you move on to O2S and get better gear and get progressively stronger and so on and so on until you get to the final turn O4S which is not the hardest they've ever added but a good challenge nonetheless.

There you can obtain the best weapon until the end of this patch cycle until relic eventually gets upgraded. If you clear all of that and get BiS and know you beat the savage turns when it was hard and unerfed that is definitely something you earned. Also keeping up with and completing the savage content they add makes you into a better player. You improve and learn new mechanic styles that they may make use of again so you earn that improvement as well.

If you have no time to join a static that also might be the problem. A static fulfills this idea that you mentioned of gearing up and getting progressively stronger and being able to take on the next savage floor as a group. How far into savage have you cleared if I may ask?

I pointed out that if that is your opinion then that is fine. Some do have fun acquiring gear, but not actually have fun in the content itself that is true. There are so many different kinds of players.

But I am saying to you that that opinion and mentality likely doesn't go over well in a game like FFXIV. It's core design is a vertical progression system not horizontal so yes the gear eventually gets replaced, but you have to remember it takes over 6 months for that to happen. During that 6 months you earned your rewards and got progressively better to take on the hardest content they added during that patch cycle.

[spf1200]

SE it too scared to change anything. They found a system that works and they are going to stick to it.

[heynowjose]

Unfortunately sqenix is not going to change anything anytime soon. No natter how stale and at this point basic and formulaic the game has becomes hardcore sqenix fans will continue to play. Until square sees a decline in profit there is nothing they need or would want to change.

With that being said I do agree with you. With this latest patch I found myself asking if I would come back for the next expansion. There's going to be nothing truly new. Just a new coat if paint on the same stuff we've been getting. There's no innovation or moving forward anymore. Stormblood was just HW and ARR with a new story. Nothing else changed.

Depending on what this supposed new content they'll be working on (aka the reason odd patched have barely anything in them now) turn's out to be it'll decide if I stay for the next expansion. But thats just me. I'm sure plenty of ppl still love and play this game as though they're getting new content not just the same 1,2,3 but in different fonts lol