A Modest Thought

[hellmach]

WARNING: Long winded rant incoming but before anyone says "If you don't like it get out" I will tell you this: I loved this game because it gave me faith in a franchise I long saw as falling from grace. FF14 made me believe in the Final Fantasy name again and in the company that gave me my first taste of RPGs and changed the way I gamed forever. I want to believe this game can do more then it is now. That's why I'm airing out my grievances and I hope my fellow FF14 fans, old and new, engage rather then dismiss.


Newer people would not be able to relate to this post as much since you haven't been around for enough time to experience this but I hope some older players would be able to relate. The game for me and possibly many others is getting stale and some people I've talked to have pointed out that there's been no significant shake up in the way the core content is either delivered or designed that holds my or their interest for an extended period of time and they may end up like myself, disillusioned.

What do I mean by core content?

Dungeons, primals, raids, and the incentives behind doing them. Side content like Diadem or Golden Saucer won't be addressed past the next section.

So what do I mean delivery of content? The pattern goes like this in general:


X.0- We get leveling content, the base MSQs, expert roulette dungeons with their tomestones, and a new set of primals to fight.

Every odd patch after this and up to X.5 (so X.1, X.3, X.5) introduces a new 24-man raid, possibly some side content including Hildebrand or Moogle Deliveries (2.5 introduced the Golden Saucer which I love, 3.1 introduced Diadem which was good idea but had to be reworked because it became a camp fest for the best mobs that could drop the most epic loot and discouraged exploration which was the entire point of the instance, and so on), as well as a new primal and some new dungeons for the expert roulette.

Every even patch (X.2 and X.4) raises the item level, introduces a new 8-man high end raid, as well as new tomestones to grind.

Every patch has new MSQ as well as dungeons and primals.

Other things that have been implemented over the course of the game have been the various PvP modes of which have kind of become Feast and Frontline spam (that's a whole other monster entirely), Lords of Verminion, Diadem, Deep Dungeon (which I initially liked but I did get tired of the grind after a while and have only used it to pump fast xp into my unleveled classes), Aquapolis and it's level 70 counterpart, Lost Canals (one of the pieces of content I still enjoy doing), that weird MOBA PvP thing they added this patch and that's all I could remember atm.

It should be worth noting this patch cycle for core content is very predictable. It should also be worth noting we've nominally (NOTE: By the numbers) gotten less core content with every expansion. ARR gave us 3 new max level dungeons every patch, HW two and SB one. We had 3 starting primals in ARR but only 2 in SB and HW.

So what do I mean by content design?

The way myself and my friends who have complained about the game see it is that the content we're given is quickly "spent" and there is nothing after the content is experienced really notable that makes you want to log in and experience the rest of the game itself besides maybe to chat with your friends or grind out another class.

To give an example, I've personally found the difficulty of the dungeons going down over time on top of getting less and less of them with every expansion. It could be because I've improved as a player since I've come into the game but while the looks and aesthetic have improved the difficulty hasn't been fine tuned to keep it engaging and in one case, to my knowledge, has been nerfed (The Vault which I found to be one of the funner dungeons pre-nerf and the boss just the right kind of difficulty for a dungeon).

I do not feel a personal incentive to do primals since Bismarck and Ravana because my gear would be outdated in the very same patch with Sophia EX being an exception because I had just come back to the game at the time after a long break and needed decent daggers to go into Alexander. That exception otherwise, why go through the trouble when I can buy my gear with tomestones which can get me buy so I can get the second best set. Oh but because of the previous mentioned point, where the dungeons are easy and unengaging I have only done 3 expert roulettes since this expansion dropped and I stopped doing experts months before that. I can just grind up Alex normal's lower modes, wait for 4.2 to drop and just catch up with story gear. The 24 man raid at least seems decent so I can use that to catch up instead. But I don't want to do this. Some people may disagree with the point on the primals and they like the challenge primals bring but that brings me to my point with all of this. About 2 years actively playing this game with almost a year in between where I was gone and the content is feeling very monotonous. The only reason I log in is to shoot the shit with online friends but I can easily do that through various discord groups I've joined.

After airing my grievances to give context to the following question here it is:

What plans does SE have to shake up their core content and keep it from being "quickly spent"? Are there any further plans to keep the players who've supported the game for years but feel disillusioned with this monotony some way to keep us engaged because from THE diminishing gameplay quality (not visual quality but in terms of difficulty and beyond just being a gauntlet) in your dungeon content, diminishing numbers of said dungeons, a tomestone grind that discourages doing your next to most difficult content a.k.a primals because you can just grind these tomestones or gil and buy your gear and still be good to raid in your only 8 man high end raid?

I'll repeat this: Before anyone says "If you don't like it get out". I loved this game because it gave me faith in a franchise I long saw as falling from grace. FF14 made me believe in the Final Fantasy name again and in the company that gave me my first taste of RPGs and changed the way I gamed forever. I want to believe this game can do more then it is now. That's why I'm airing out my grievances and I hope my fellow FF14 fans, old and new, engage rather then dismiss.

[Miste]

I've been subbed since 1.0 until now and I don't feel the same way personally.

I mean I do content because I like to play. The rewards getting outdated eventually don't bother me personally because I enjoy learning and completing the fights and collecting and doing a lot of different content. I am one of those players who does everything...except PVP. I just don't care for it in this game much but I still do it sometimes. If the reward is too much of a focus it can cause problems because you are only doing it to get better gear and not because you like it.

I mean the game is still FFXIV so changing the core isn't likely going to happen. You'd have to look for a new title in order to get a whole new experience. It would be sort of like buying a FPS game and then expecting it to morph into a JRPG with a DLC. It ain't gonna happen. The core will be the core likely.

I am with you on adding more avenues to explore in this game for sure and they will be adding more modes and more activities and more everything as time goes on, but in my opinion the core of the game will not change unless the game nose dives for some reason with the current core.

Difficulty is a tough issue, because while I feel some of the game is too easy...the fact is so many different kinds of players play this game and they need to cater to many types. If you want more difficulty then you should be tackling the newest savage raids and EX primals, but you don't want to because of the gear being outdated though?

The reason to do tougher content isn't supposed to be only to get gear. You are missing the "it's fun" aspect. If playing a job you like in tough content and learning the fight isn't fun and only the reward is fun I am not sure if the game would be able to keep you happy :/

Just my two cents.

[hellmach]

snip.

When I mention core content I meant more just this pattern of patch releases and the content featured in it that isn't extra like Diadem and so on. not the core way the game mechanics function or anything of the sort.

My issue with the way savage and EX Primals are structured is that unless you're going for absolute BiS there's no incentive to do them. In the case of EX Primals there's no point because tomestone gear outscales it (Shinryu aside but this will be the case again in 4.2). In the odd catch up patches you can just spam 24 mans until you're 340 with all tomestone gear from weekly drops of upgrade materials. There's little incentive to tackle the hardest content in the game outside of savage because the easy way out is always there (tomestones). I personally have an issue with the roulette grind myself but I know they've implemented other ways to get tomestones which is a plus.


Since you mentioned getting better as a player, I actually picked up Paladin to play this expansion when I've played Ninja (and held my own in an ok-ish manner) since I started back in 2.44 to shake things up but even then I don't feel any incentive to gear up and tackle savage because there seems to be no point... I can do 4.2 content just fine in 320 gear with a tomestone weapon and I personally don't have time to do anything but PUG Savage and, besides Shinryu, the EX Weapons are useless because I can get a shiny 330 weapon if I wait long enough. If I bide my time I can just sit on a 330 weapon and upgrade it to 340 in the next patch so no point in doing Shinryu. The thing I enjoyed when I came to this game was the feeling of progressively getting stronger with each challenge but after figuring out how the system works I don't feel any incentive to tackle these challenges and I'm sure I'm not alone in this sentiment.

My other issue I guess has to boil down to replayability. A lot of the time you see people log on for maybe two weeks then just stop outside of weekly drops from savage, 24 man, etc. If they're BiS good luck seeing them log back on until the item levels go up or Bahamut Ultimate comes back unless they want to gear up other classes or level them up.


So when I mention to change the way core content is structured and delivered I guess it's more about improving the incentives to tackle this fun and challenging content and give us core content (dungeons, raids outside of savage, etc) that draws myself and other players back for more. So it doesn't feel so old hat so soon.

[Miste]

I don't feel any incentive to gear up and tackle savage because there seems to be no point...

The point and part of the incentive of gearing up is so you can tackle savage though. I mean you could try doing Neo Exdeath in O4S at i320, but outside of the top tier 1% of players you'll likely have an awful hard time clearing it like that so most players need gear from tomes and savage to clear savage.

Also like I said you seem to be focused too much on the rewards rather than having fun doing the fights. If you had fun just doing the content then the reward would be awesome, but slightly secondary. I mean you basically say there is no point in doing any content...so it seems like you just don't like actually playing the game. If that is how you feel then that is how you feel, but therein lies the root of your issue.

I personally don't need any weapons from Shinryu EX since I raid savage I have had a i340 weapon for a few months now, but I did the fight because I wanted to, because I wanted to learn it, to have fun, and I did. I really like that fight actually. It is fun to heal it and I might even try DPS in there soon for some more fun.

Your gripe doesn't seem to be about content either. It seems to me your main issue is the gear structure which is a core feature of the game. You dislike that gear becomes replaced later so you don't bother, but unfortunately like I said gear structure is part of the core of the game and is unlikely to change.

There are incentives...it just seems like they aren't incentives for you personally. Fun is taking a backseat over rewards and how useful the reward is and you don't want to do the more difficult content because you feel the gear rewarded isn't useful enough for you or you feel it gets outdated to fast. You seem to have no drive to learn and clear the fights just to experience it and have fun.

I mean like I said if that is your opinion that is your opinion, but it is the root of the problem you have with the game and unfortunately the game seems to be doing very well with the current structure so you may be a minority here.

[hellmach]

Sniperoo

For some of us the fun is in acquiring the gear and not for it's own sake but knowing that it will make us progressively stronger and be able to take on more difficult bosses and most importantly that you get the feeling that you earned your reward. You then take these rewards and you take on the next big challenge. Basically the Fantasy ofgrowing power. With BiS I'm sure you definitely feel that you earned it. You got your reward for sure but it's before that where I have a problem. EX Primals don't give you many of the pre-BiS rewards and I wouldn't find this to be a problem if the roulettes you namely get tomestones from were difficult or not even but engaging and I feel like I earned my tomestones. I personally don't feel like I earned my tomestones and I replied to somebody else about this above if you want to know more about what I think of the dungeons and roulette system.

I know I'm not the only one that feels this way and sarcastically call Tomestone gear welfare gear. A few older players, older then me, feel this way as well and while you don't and the newer players that are fueling the success of the game now don't there's a possibility where you may and they will eventually see these systems and wonder what's the point. Will it be 5.0, 6.0, 7.0 if the game makes it to that point (not saying it won't but you never know what will happen from here until then)?

I'm going to sit back an bit and see if somebody who shares my sentiments wants to chime in. I don't want to be the only one harping about this on the forums if I'm not.


TL,DR: My issue or motivation when it comes to engaging in these fights and so on isn't gear for gear's sake but fulfilling the fantasy of growing more powerful through that gear and earning it. While yes you earn your BiS through Omega Savage anything pre-BiS doesn't really have that feeling nowadays. Part of it is tomestones and another is the expert roulettte dungeons you engage in to earn those tomestones doesn't feel engaging and yet they give you access to gear that's better then what you get for EX Primals, which are engaging. Please read above for my thoughts on that.

[Miste]

For some of us the fun is in acquiring the gear and not for it's own sake but knowing that it will make us progressively stronger and be able to take on more difficult bosses and most importantly that you get the feeling that you earned your reward. You then take these rewards and you take on the next big challenge.

Yes, but I already said that savage does what you are asking for. You clear O1S and get better gear and progressively stronger then you move on to O2S and get better gear and get progressively stronger and so on and so on until you get to the final turn O4S which is not the hardest they've ever added but a good challenge nonetheless.

There you can obtain the best weapon until the end of this patch cycle until relic eventually gets upgraded. If you clear all of that and get BiS and know you beat the savage turns when it was hard and unerfed that is definitely something you earned. Also keeping up with and completing the savage content they add makes you into a better player. You improve and learn new mechanic styles that they may make use of again so you earn that improvement as well.

If you have no time to join a static that also might be the problem. A static fulfills this idea that you mentioned of gearing up and getting progressively stronger and being able to take on the next savage floor as a group. How far into savage have you cleared if I may ask?

I pointed out that if that is your opinion then that is fine. Some do have fun acquiring gear, but not actually have fun in the content itself that is true. There are so many different kinds of players.

But I am saying to you that that opinion and mentality likely doesn't go over well in a game like FFXIV. It's core design is a vertical progression system not horizontal so yes the gear eventually gets replaced, but you have to remember it takes over 6 months for that to happen. During that 6 months you earned your rewards and got progressively better to take on the hardest content they added during that patch cycle.

[bswpayton]

When I mention core content I meant more just this pattern of patch releases and the content featured in it that isn't extra like Diadem and so on. not the core way the game mechanics function or anything of the sort.

My issue with the way savage and EX Primals are structured is that unless you're going for absolute BiS there's no incentive to do them. In the case of EX Primals there's no point because tomestone gear outscales it (Shinryu aside but this will be the case ev.

if you dont see the incentive you prob arent going to , I do content for challenge the othe rparts are just a bonus, my issue is I just wasnt lucly to have good friends to do the stuff with.

[SenorPatty]

I don't think there are any plans.

SE's working on the basis of catering to the mass populace of the everyday gamer. So they release regular content but at the same time sprinkle just enough to keep some niche groups interested. Take ultimate baha for example. Its one of the "cherry on top" features that came out on top of regular content.

Its clear their collective motto is to playing it safe and the thing is, it works. People complain about staleness but its not a majority.

[SendohJin]

(NOTE: By the numbers) gotten less core content with every expansion.

this is mostly not true, the only thing they've failed hard on is trials for Hildibrand. we got 3 dungeons in ARR because dungeons was all they had to build on top of. now besides constantly putting out new dungeons, they also have to duplicate in some manner hunts, treasure map dungeons, PotD, PvP.

Diadem is not side content it just failed, if it was moderately successful there would've been high demand for a SB replica.

Eureka is the new thing, we have to see how that plays out.

most of the playerbase likes most of the content to be familiar. the dungeons, trials, 24 mans, Savage raids all change enough to fit most of the playerbase.

[hellmach]

this is mostly not true, the only thing they've failed hard on is trials for Hildibrand. we got 3 dungeons in ARR because dungeons was all they had to build on top of. now besides constantly putting out new dungeons, they also have to duplicate in some manner hunts, treasure map dungeons, PotD, PvP.

Tbf this was only going to be a discussion about core content which is basically raids, trials, and dungeons but since you're tying it back to that I'll reply to you.


You forgot that they also failed in giving us trials for the HW Relic weapons which was an aspect I found super cool about the ARR weapons even though I wasn't around for the release of it but instead they tied it to FATES. If by Hunts you're referring to Fox Girl and Ixion we had those in ARR in the form of Odin and Behemoth and didn't have an equivalent in SB besides Couerlregina I think.

Ok they probably used the resources from that one extra dungeon in HW to develop PotD and Aquapolis, this is a probable and fair point. I'm fine with this because I love Aquapolis and Canals and PotD past floor 100 is fun and challenging. So if the core idea behind Deep Dungeon and Treasure Dungeons as well as the teams have been developed and we haven't gotten much of an idea of what's in store for us in the future what justifies us losing one extra dungeon in SB?

Shirogane? They already have the core systems with the other 3 housing areas in place and just had to design the areas which are the same area shifted depending on whether it's a division or subdivision. We had that MOBA game coming that nobody asked for like Lords of Verminion but to be fair I guess it's cool, I personally haven't tried it (I'm dying to) and I think LoV is alright.

So why not increase the gameplay (not referring to Visual and Audio quality) quality of the dungeons that we have to run day in and day out in expert roulette since you're only working on one? I personally think they did it with Omega which the normal mode is already funner imo then Gordias Normal ever was and I'm excited to vicariously play Ultimate Bahamut through my hardcore raider friends. If they actually made that one dungeon more intriguing and engaging then the ones we got in HW or tried to do more different things like they did with the second boss of Bardam's, or went back to ARR's baseline difficulty for their dungeons I wouldn't care. Shoot I may even go back to doing Expert Roulettes again because it's fun but so far from what I've seen, and in my personal opinion, the lvl 70 dungeons are easier then the 70 dungeons from HW even and only slightly more engaging even though they have less dungeons to design at the moment. They haven't tried anything new with Rhalgar's Fist or Kurogane Castle either. I have yet to do Lost Canals so I don't have an opinion on that. If there was a ripe time to do that now would be it don't you think?

I already explained my frustration with EX primals in the above posts.