Regarding no DRK adjustments in 4.1

[Aana]

What negates WAR from needing some type of support skill is that they already have the best damage of all the tanks, the best personal defenses of all the tanks, the best mobility of all the tanks, the best enmity generation of all the tanks, the least costly stance swaps of all the tanks, they're the only tank that doesn't require a SAM/NIN babysitter to switch off the main target to an add, the best ability to deal with forced downtime, and the best ability to burst/burn.

WAR has a tremendous advantage over every other tank in basically every respect, and they're now being handed not just "a support skill", but a support skill that is hilariously overpowered even compared to the tank who is supposed to specialize in support defense. It's really, really dumb.

What exactly changed from storm blood to now that made war trash tier to this OP juggernaut you claim it to be? Defense hasn't changed. Dps has not changed substantially (the extra 20 rage from inner release cost is nice, but not some Dps gamebeaker). It sire wasn't the hp drain on cyclone. Drk got potency buffs on par with 50 on IB and 10 on path and then some. Is it the stance dance cost? Considering no one in optimized raiding uses tank stance anyway, nope no effect.

War was universally agreed trash tier at release under drk. Now it's god tier because shake it off became something good? Please lay off the hyperbolic crazyness. War has a "tremendous advantage over every other tank". Did we just forget pld exists? War is not some god tier tank and drk is crying in the corner. Drk was rated well over war until only recently and very little has actually changed. It will not take some giant buff to tip the scales back when only small things tipped it to start with.

Also there are additional changes we haven't even seen which likely incldue drk anyway. Chilax.

[Felorr]

Sitting here wondering why they gave WAR a party buff in this round of updates and nothing for DRK and I remembered. Shake it Off was blasted on day one for being useless, and was even further cemented as a useless skill when no relevant mechanic even put debuffs on you that could remove. They've been working on fixing Shake it Off for a while. I feel like people need to continue the conversation about balance, because I think if its anywhere people can feel like there truly is a balance, is in defensive raid buffs for the tanks.

[Crater]

War was universally agreed trash tier at release under drk..

The only people who "universally agreed" on that BS are A) people who didn't know what they were talking about, and B) spoiled prima donna WAR mains who think that WAR being balanced against the other tanks means that WAR is underpowered. At Stormblood launch it was well-balanced against the other two tanks. When Delta was released and WAR's stance swap penalty was removed, it became the strongest tank, because it lost the big disadvantage that was meant to balance out its myriad strengths, which is where we are now.

The only reason that this delusion about WAR needing buffs survived in the first place is because the class's whiny-ass player base spent the last 4-5 months tossing out ludicrous suggestions like "Fell Cleave needs to be 750 potency and Inner Release needs to be on a 60s cooldown". It was never actually true.

[Tegernako]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4420958

Right back at ya buddy.

They said here's a sample of the changes. Meaning it's not the full list. What are you talking about? lol

My point is the OP talked as if it were a fact that there are no changes coming when the post itself says it's a partial list of job changes coming which means DRK changes are still likely.

[TouchandFeel]

I don't understand why these threads always have to devolve into my team vs. your team zero sum arguments.

Shake It Off was a very meh ability and it's awesome that it got changed and will now provide in a place where WAR was lacking.

However, that does not detract from the fact that DRK has even more issue and more places where they are lacking in the overall view of tank job balance.

What is rubbing DRK players the wrong way is that WAR is getting a fix for an issue when DRK, which has more issues that need addressing (defensive capabilities, dps, fun-factor/higher skill ceiling), will potentially get nothing or minimal adjustments.

The salt on the wound is that in addition to DRK potentially getting overlooked when it needed the most love, the change to WAR then creates a domino effect that results in the one place where DRK wasn't the tank with the least, utility, to now be arguably the bottom of the barrel there as well, which puts DRK below both other tanks in most aspects of performance.

While each individual place where DRK falls behind might not be huge, in combination they add up. When one job has almost exclusively weaknesses and virtually no discernible strengths in comparison to other jobs in their role, there is a glaring issue with balance.

The issue is not that Shake It Off got changed for the better, it's that DRK is potentially not also being brought up, which will just result in it falling farther behind.

[Tegernako]

You wrote all of that and yet you have no idea what they are doing.

I'm not saying SE will shock us all by fixing everything wrong with DRK. I mean they thought SB WAR/DRK was acceptable.

But...again. You do not have the full 4.1 changelog so before assuming anything just wait another week ya?

I don't understand why these threads always have to devolve into my team vs. your team zero sum arguments.

Doesn't understand why it's always us vs them. Turns it into an us vs them argument.

(sorry, I respect ya. I just had to rib you about that lol)

Honestly, I have a very hard conveying in text form just how much I care about both DRK and WAR. I hope 4.1 changes things.

[Aana]

The only people who "universally agreed" on that BS are A) people who didn't know what they were talking about, and B) spoiled prima donna WAR mains who think that WAR being balanced against the other tanks means that WAR is underpowered. At Stormblood launch it was well-balanced against the other two tanks. When Delta was released and WAR's stance swap penalty was removed, it became the strongest tank, because it lost the big disadvantage that was meant to balance out its myriad strengths, which is where we are now.

The only reason that this delusion about WAR needing buffs survived in the first place is because the class's whiny-ass player base spent the last six months tossing out ludicrous suggestions like "Fell Cleave needs to be 750 potency and Inner Release needs to be on a 60s cooldown". It was never actually true.

And you could swap war with drk and your post would still be true. Have you seen the multiple 50 page threads that whine in just the same manner? People overlooking what drk does have, completely downplaying anything good they have going and stating anything that could be construed with negative for drk? Just like this one?

All 3 tanks are within 5% of each other in DPS. All 3 tanks have been shown capable of completing content at the highest levels (FFlogs has all combos of tanks just in the top 10 alone). Pld's party support is frequently overrated as it is largely unnecessary and overhyped in effectiveness (ignoring things like passage completely killing DPS). Drk IS the bottom of the 3, but not by the orders of magnitude these 50+ page whine threads claim (just like you state for war previously)

DPS: Drk DPS it has the simplest and least punishable ST rotation of all tanks. Its dps is also slightly lower potential by a few %. Lowest? Yes. A travesty of this age? Not at all considering the ease at which it is used. SE has even used that exact justification for DPS jobs slight variations in damage. ie: Ease of use and mechanics interference in performing. The relative DPS performance of all tanks fits their model and is not that terribly significant in their current state. Minor adjustments to potency can easily move this needle. No major retool needed.

Utility/Support: Was second. Probably now 3rd. (I have a sneaking suspicion one of the 'unnamed' buffs will be either a %hp increase or duration buff, but that's speculation.) Would not need dramatic changes to current kit to maintain parity.

Personal defense. All tanks have rough parity in stances, 'always up' CDs (IB/Shell/TBN), Same role skills, Immunities, Heavy CD. This leaves:

War: Raw intuition. Strong reliable Phy defense. Short CD.
Drk: Dark mind. Strong reliable Magic defense Still shorter CD.
Pld: Bullwark. Strong (less) reliable all defense on a long friggin CD.
2 high uptime abilities effective on magic/phy. vs 1 longer CD with less reliability that works on everything. Rough parity.

This leaves ToB on war and Passage (when used as a self CD) vs Nothing on drk.

Theres your hole. That's it. Drk is 1 medium CD away from virtual parity with other 2. Tob is weaker than passage, but doesn't stop damage and has a shorter CD. Drk needs 1 medium-ish CD to balance the scales. That's it in defense.
___________________________________

TLDR:
DPS is within justifiable levels considering the devs approach of fight interference and ease of use.
Party defense: War had zero. Pld has a lot. Drk in the middle. A slight TBN or other adjustment would easily bring drk up to par with war.
Defense: Drk has 1 hole that the others don't. One could argue that TBN makes up for it with its near zero cost, OGCD nature, and absurdly short CD.

The only real problem is that all of drks balance design on defense parity and party support rides on TBN and its a smidge underperforming in both areas. Minor tweaks could easily bring back that balance in both areas and a couple potency adjustments can do the same for any remaining DPS disparity.

Drk is not broken beyond belief. War is not OP beyond belief. Pld has been largely overhyped for what it brings. Tanks are the closest to balance as in any time in history. Yet we get hyperbolic BS about the abysmal state of drk. A few slight tweaks and the world will be fine. The only 'complaints' at that point will be aesthetic. "I want scourge animation! 1 combo is boring!". But on a PRACTICAL level, tanks are VERY VERY close to overall parity. But these threads keep trying to blow minor disparities WAAAY out of proportion.

Calm your tits and wait for the 4.1 notes.

[TouchandFeel]

You wrote all of that and yet you have no idea what they are doing.

I'm not saying SE will shock us all by fixing everything wrong with DRK. I mean they thought SB WAR/DRK was acceptable.

But...again. You do not have the full 4.1 changelog so before assuming anything just wait another week ya?

That is why I said "potentially" everywhere through out my post. I was trying to highlight through my word choice and usage that it is a potential, not a given.

I'm well aware that not all changes have been presented and that there is even a chance that things could change, however based on pretty much every Live Letter and Release Notes in the past the changes that aren't mentioned up front tend to be minor at best.

Mainly I was saying IF nothing is really done to fix DRK, which looking at what we have been presented through the filter of how things have gone in the past, then DRK may be left in a bad spot.

Doesn't understand why it's always us vs them. Turns it into an us vs them argument.

(sorry, I respect ya. I just had to rib you about that lol)

No worries, no feathers ruffled. I would like to clarify though.

I'm not posing an us vs. them argument, I'm posing an us AND them one. It's inclusive, not exclusive. I stated that I liked the change to Shake It Off and that it's cool WAR is getting that. I also stated that it sucks that DRK appears like it may get overlooked and that a job that was already behind in many factors will just fall farther behind when the other jobs are buffed and it is not.

An us vs. them stance would have been if I said WAR shouldn't get the Shake It Off buff because DRK may get nothing. I want the Shake It Off buff for WAR and fixes for DRK.

[Ekimmak]

Honestly, I have serious questions about Shake it off's changes, but what would I know? I apparently bottom out in FFlogs, I'm not good at optimising my tank.

Alll I know is that a very niche recovery move is now becoming a party support that really wasn't needed.

I do have a DRK alt, but I'm apparently not very good at that either, because I can't see how that needs improving, save for a rollback on the changes to Blood Price.

[MyaValentine]

I don't understand why these threads always have to devolve into my team vs. your team zero sum arguments.

I know right? but I gotta say it's OP's fault for starting a hate thread instead of a civil one.