DRK Consolidated Feedback Thread

[Ekimmak]

Before you go asking for a permanent MP penalty, how about explaining why it's there in the first place? Because I see very little point to it now that PLD has an offensive rotation involving their MP as well.

[Chrono_Rising]

I think a permanent cancellation of mana generation from outside sources would only end up being a nerf. It isn't a frequent thing, but there are times in fights where there is nothing to hit and so it becomes beneficial to turn off darkside and regenerate mana from supportive abilities. If you trait this you would effectively be giving up the ability to gain mana during phases of fights where there are no adds and the boss is out of range, leading to less mana lowering dark arts usage and therefore lowering dark knight dps overall.

Before you go asking for a permanent MP penalty, how about explaining why it's there in the first place? Because I see very little point to it now that PLD has an offensive rotation involving their MP as well.

I agree now that another tank's dps depends on mana I no longer see the reason for this darkside penalty. Originally Dark Arts functioned as dark knights equivalent of berserk or fight or flight, except that instead of pressing it once and getting a % damage buff we press it every time we want to power up certain moves. However, with the potential for a mch refresh, brd refresh, and ewer (ast refresh) this could lead to dark knight being able to use dark arts far more than intended tipping the damage balance in their favor while pld and war had no equivalent. I believe this presented a balance issue for the team because balancing it without recognizing the potential for extra dark arts would lead to dark knight being op in certain compositions, while balancing it with that composition in mind would lead to dark knight being undertuned. So I think they probably decided to cancel the refresh abilities when darkside was active and prevented the issue before it even began.


However, paladin now has an equivalent move, holy spirit, which outside of goring blade and royal authority is their hardest hitting move, the difference is this does not require a combo to get max potency and can be spammed. Paladin, however, does not have the mana regeneration penalty dark knight does, and can therefore greatly benefit from having multiple sources of mana refresh active. The reason for dark side canceling mana refresh no longer exists, as another tank now also benefits from support roles. The dark side penalties are outdated and need to be addressed further with 4.1, imo they should remove the dark side penalty of canceling mana refresh from outside sources which should hopefully close our dps gap.

[MauvaisOeil]

I think a permanent cancellation of mana generation from outside sources would only end up being a nerf. It isn't a frequent thing, but there are times in fights where there is nothing to hit and so it becomes beneficial to turn off darkside and regenerate mana from supportive abilities. If you trait this you would effectively be giving up the ability to gain mana during phases of fights where there are no adds and the boss is out of range, leading to less mana lowering dark arts usage and therefore lowering dark knight dps overall.

Well it takes around 6 ticks to even compensate the cost of turning darkside on. Around 18s of total down time for just a neutral value, and then, 21s to have a minor benefit. (not totally sure about the exact value, let's call them empyreal)

Currently it's pretty rare, and marginal, and happens on some fights like Yojimbo and his 30s downtime which are a pain in the ***.

[Chrono_Rising]

Well it takes around 6 ticks to even compensate the cost of turning darkside on. Around 18s of total down time for just a neutral value, and then, 21s to have a minor benefit. (not totally sure about the exact value, let's call them empyreal)

Currently it's pretty rare, and marginal, and happens on some fights like Yojimbo and his 30s downtime which are a pain in the ***.

Yes, looking at your personal mana regeneration it is a small return. But quick fact checking your numbers: in battle no darkside we regenerate 189 mana per tick, making the tipping point 4 ticks or 12 seconds, not a huge difference but thats 1890 mana or half a dark arts when you factor in turning darkside back on over the 30 seconds you cited. Thats a 70 potency gain without doing anything except toggling darkside, before you even consider refreshes as I do below.

Suppose someone helps the healers out with a party mana refresh at the same time and then you can see the benefit. Is it often, no. Is it rare? I would say its rare in dungeons, but dark does well in dungeons regardless. Here is a list of the times I'm familiar with and about how much mana I can get back, historically, bard refresh assumed: (note: these are approximate percentages)

v4s neo ex death during grand cross omega mana restored: about 60%

v4s ex death during decisive battle total mana retored: about 30%

v3s during fifth phase farm mana restored: 25%

Lakshmi while dancing total mana restored: 50%

For Heavensward:

a12s during boss ultimate cast total mana restored: 50% (100% with brd and mch its not really fair)

a11s plane rides total mana restored per plane: 50%

a11s during numbered dots phase mana restored: 30%

Bismark, Ravana, Thordan, Sephirot, Nidhogg, Sophia, and Zurvan EX total mana restored: 30% to 75% depending on exactly which encounter

Again these use bard refreshes requiring darkside droping, if you were lucky to have a bard and mch you could double your mana refresh totals in heavensward but this is no longer a thing in SB. Is it super common? No, is it worth it goining into a new phase with some extra mana? Definately.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Could just have refresh effects ignore DRKs MP penalty now that PLD have 2 viable options to spend their MP on... Also Grit makes all physical attack abilities and weaponskills AoE, with slightly extended range on already existing AoE abilities...

[shao32]

snip

are you really think well all the changes you propose?

[Deathshiro]

Just my 2 Gil, but it would be nice to have mana gain effects such as Refresh and Mana shift affect us while in dark side. I see little to no reason to keep it the way it is when dark side only haunts our natural regen while in combat(which is fine imo, keep it that way).

[Lyth]

I think that if you want to understand why DRK changed in 4.x, you need to look at a single design decision. Specifically, you need to look at the removal of Darkside's MP drain.

In 3.x, there was a natural equilibrium between Darkside and Syphon Strike. As long as you were attacking something, your MP would slowly float upwards. If it got too high, either over time or because of BW, you could drive it back down into the middle with DASE.

The removal of the MP drain from DASE broke the equilibrium. Now, your tendency is to cap. DASE wasn't enough; so both Syphon and Souleater had to be capable of burning off a DA. Scourge was also a casualty of this; you can't reliably follow a rotation if you're forced to constantly make adjustments to your MP to avoid capping.

The resulting change also influenced our oGCD system. The number of oGCDs needed to be trimmed down to allow for increased DA usage. A lot of oGCD actions which previously depended on DA usage (like C+S) became forced double weaves, because you couldn't DA early in the cycle and pick up the oGCD after the next combo action.

Crater made an interesting suggestion earlier on with regards to MP bar size. Increasing total MP does influence burst, but it doesn't influence the rate at which you gain MP. What it does do, however, is give you more room to float your MP, without risk of hitting either extreme.

Either way, you now have to exert effort to stay midline, while previously in this happened naturally on its own.

[DRKoftheAzure]

snip

Which is why Dark Arts needs to be a constantly active buff due to how outdated its mechanics work that also slowly drains MP but providing 15% damage boost while also allowing refresh effects to work on DRK...

[Deathshiro]

Soo from the looks of the live letter... No DRK adjustments . But hey WARRIORS get a Fell Cleave buff and a shield on Shake it off! Not like DRK needed mitigation & damage or anything...