When dps dont aoe should they just get kicked from the start?

[Hruodig]

You give your all in fate parties when not trying to go for gold? Or when you are just trying to relax and get good xp maybe while multitasking?
My whole point is why am I forced to respect people's time in the place where experience points come easier? I am saying MSQ or normal dungeons should be not party only if it is causing people to kick each other and stunt another's progress.

Point two I agree very much so. Play your role or get your hand spanked, play your role sub optimally and get kicked.

Not really, you perfect your own world but you don't really do teamwork other than dodging mechanics together and manage a few group buffs.

If AoE is undeniably better than single target regardless of job on trash mobs then what I said makes even more sense. No skill or job should be so overpowered that the other skills or jobs be cast from content. That's why nerfs and buffs exist, it's this thing called balance that most mmos try to strive for but never perfect. What you just said is that you should make use of your entire tookit according to the situation. Well look at the OP topic. There is no alternate situations, it's a flat out questioning if players should be kicked for not using a piece of their toolkit in all dungeons, not one particular dungeon.

Lol about me wanting to be a snowflake. That is what whining about other players or glamouring basically boils down to. I am not saying I am above it either but let's be real here. Everyone wants to be a snowflake.

I don't do many fates anymore as there are better ways to level, but I generally strive to play my best no matter what content I'm doing. It's not exactly hard to do.

There's plenty of teamwork you can do in savage content that don't just revolve around buffs. Pld can tempered will and cover ranged dps to negate knockback in o4s. Healers can rescue pld after double attack during neo exdeath to help them maintain uptime. Hell, all speed running is about coordinating team buffs to make sure everything lines up at the most optimal time, and you have to work together to plan that out over a fight. The only reason I can do high dps as a tank is because my healers are skilled enough to know when they need to heal and when they don't, thus I'm relying on them to play their job well so that I can play my job well. It all fits together, and it's great when you're in a group of players who all know what they're doing and they're good at it.

You DO use all your abilities in bog standard dungeons. You aoe trash and you single target rotation on bosses. I'm not really sure what the misunderstanding here is. Would you aoe a single target boss?

[Ilan]

Always try to give them advice and encourage them to play better first. I think for any Duty Finder content it should be enough if the player tries to pull their weight, even if they won't succeed very well. But if they're not open for advice and just refuse to cooperate, feel free to initiate the vote kick. It is team content after all, so everyone joining is expected to put in some effort for the team.

And if you try to give them a advice you'll get answers like "You are not playing that class, but i do!" or "You don't pay my sub, i can do what i want!" or you just get ignored. And yes sometimes i want to kick players who straight up refuse to use aoe because their tp or mana could get low because they are disrespectfull to their party.

[SendohJin]

If AoE is undeniably better than single target regardless of job on trash mobs then what I said makes even more sense. No skill or job should be so overpowered that the other skills or jobs be cast from content. That's why nerfs and buffs exist, it's this thing called balance that most mmos try to strive for but never perfect.

are you implying AOE skills designed to hit multiple mobs should be nerfed so that it does the same damage as single target skills?

you know what happens on the dungeon bosses when you do that? all the single target skills are so overpowered that the AOE skills are not used.

the "content" is the dungeon as a whole, you use AOE skills on trash, you use single target skills on bosses, that's how the game is balanced so that most everything is useful.

[Sandpark]

Not gonna argue back and forth. You want to be the best you can be at everything and that's cool. If this topic was about savage content anything I have said so far makes zero sense whatsoever. I want to be the best at particular things at particular times. I don't think normal or MSQ should be that time. If I was watching netflix screwing the pooch in Savage content then yeah I hope I get kicked in 30 seconds.

I use everything at my disposal when it calls for it. I've never been kicked for abysmal play but I have had criticism. Criticism is fine and dandy. And I will follow or not follow that knowledge given to me depending on the situation. If no one dies and the group gets the clear then all that was, was making a mountain out of a molehill. Unless that said person was whining about spending 10 more minutes doing a dungeon. Then I would ask, what are you playing videogames for if you just want to rush through it and treat it like a second job?

[Sandpark]

are you implying AOE skills designed to hit multiple mobs should be nerfed so that it does the same damage as single target skills?

you know what happens on the dungeon bosses when you do that? all the single target skills are so overpowered that the AOE skills are not used.

the "content" is the dungeon as a whole, you use AOE skills on trash, you use single target skills on bosses, that's how the game is balanced so that most everything is useful.

No.

I am saying that the difference should be closer between the two not the same damage. Just enough so that this argument about zone pulling, AoE dps only, healer DPS maybe comes to a close. If you can hit more enemies for more damage at once the resource cost should be higher than it currently is. Maybe open with a high damage AoE or two then due to high cost you need to switch over to single target to apply finishers.

[SendohJin]

If no one dies and the group gets the clear then all that was, was making a mountain out of a molehill.

but people can die when tanks run out of cooldowns and healers run out of skills and mana if DPS take too long to kill the trash that was pulled. so you fail your own criteria.

[Hruodig]

Not gonna argue back and forth. You want to be the best you can be at everything and that's cool. If this topic was about savage content anything I have said so far makes zero sense whatsoever. I want to be the best at particular things at particular times. I don't think normal or MSQ should be that time. If I was watching netflix screwing the pooch in Savage content then yeah I hope I get kicked in 30 seconds.

Again I have to ask-why is it ever ok to waste people's time just because the content doesn't demand that you play well? If you can play well and you're not just because "lol msq content", then you're just being lazy for the sake of being lazy, which is inconsiderate to other people.

[SendohJin]

No.

I am saying that the difference should be closer between the two not the same damage. Just enough so that this argument about zone pulling, AoE dps only, healer DPS maybe comes to a close. If you can hit more enemies for more damage at once the resource cost should be higher than it currently is. Maybe open with a high damage AoE or two then due to high cost you need to switch over to single target to apply finishers.

that breaks your "balance" theory. why should trash open with high damage AoE and finish with single target finishers when bosses and trials do not have any use for AoEs? single target skills are already heavily unbalanced everywhere else in the game.

and many jobs already do mix the two in their AoE rotations, what you're asking for actually exists.

BRDs have to apply DoTs so that Rain of Death can proc on Ballad.
Summoners and SCHs have to apply DoTs so that they can Bane.
Ninjas still need to Armor Crush and Huton.

the list goes on.

[missybee]

The "but did you die?" mentality tends to set the bar really low.

Unless, of course, it's because you are going balls deep with DPS on healer and the tank just baaaaarely makes it out alive.

Then it's okay.

[HyoMinPark]

There is no fault in the statement depending on where you are coming from.

Are you coming from everyone should do 100% best effort because story or normal dungeons are the difficult content? They are not hence we have hard,extreme, savage, super savage.

I'm coming from if I'm expected to put in effort when it comes to content, I expect others to put in the bare minimum effort when it comes to efficiency. In my eyes, that includes AOEing when appropriate. It doesn't matter if this is Savage or not: AOE versus single-target, the math speaks for itself. There is no contestment here.

I am not speaking about math. You may very well be right mathematically about AoE vs Single target. I am speaking about the intent and purpose of normal or MSQ dungeons. The intent or purpose of any FF game in the story or introduction dungeons is to progress, often these fights are not meant to be the epitome of difficult content, but a segue into later gameplay.

I am right about AOE versus single-target. You quoted my post, but did you even read it? Or comprehend it? Look at the numbers again. There are no "you may very well be right" or "if AOE is better than single-target" when it comes to a certain threshold.

Take a single pack of 5 chained mobs. Single pack. No double or triple chain pulls, just a single pack that consists of 5 mobs chained together. At this point, MOST DPS jobs should be using their AOE skills. I will use a couple different examples here.

BRD: Mage's Ballad + Rain of Death versus Mage's Ballad + Bloodletter
MB + Rain of Death: 100 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 500 potency
MB + Bloodletter: 130 potency (single target) x 1 = 130 potency

RDM: Single-target versus Scatter spam/Enchanted Moulinet
Scatter: 200 potency (Dualcasted AOE; 100 potency per cast) x 5 mobs = 1,000 potency
Enchanted Moulinet: 200 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 1,000 potency**

Single-target (assuming Ver Ready procs): 570 potency (Verfire/Verstone + Verthunder/Veraero; single-target) x 1 mob = 570 potency
Single-target (Jolt II; no Ver Ready proc): 540 potency (Jolt II + Verthunder/Veraero; single target) x 1 mob = 540 potency
Single-target (Impact; no Ver Ready proc): 570 potency (Impact + Verthunder/Veraero; single target) x 1 mob = 570 potency

Single-target melee + Verflare/Verholy nuke: 470 potency (Enchanted melee combo; single-target) + 550 nuke (Verflare/Verholy) x 1 mob = 1,020 potency**

**Consider Enchanted melee combo + nuke versus Enchanted Moulinet-- at 90/90 mana, you get 3 Enchanted Moulinets at 200 potency per mob. So, in this example: 5 mobs at 1,000 potency per Enchanted Moulinet for a total of 3,000 potency versus the single-target 1,020 potency.

MNK: Snap Punch versus Rockbreaker; Bootshine versus Arm of the Destroyer
Snap Punch: 170 potency (single target; flank potency) x 1 mob = 170 potency
Rockbreaker: 130 (AOE) x 5 mobs = 550 potency

Bootshine: 140 potency (single target) x 1 mob = 140 potency
Arm of the Destroyer: 80 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 400 potency

BLM: Fire II versus Fire IV
Fire II: 80 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 400 potency
Fire IV: 260 potency (single target) x 1 mob = 260 potency

The math speaks for itself here. When it comes to a "right," AOE in a "larger pull" (3+ mobs) is the "right" thing to do. The math doesn't lie here. Not trying to argue you specifically, but just saying that you (general "you") can't really argue with the numbers (although I know that some people try to).

If you are coming from a I play rpgs to explore and experience content/story that includes playing/experimenting in a style I enjoy. Then even if the math says otherwise, as long as you can win, then it may be more fun. Games are supposed to be fun first before a job. Locking players out of the basic progress or encouraging players to question to kick is going against that grain.

Fun is a subjective experience. I will give you that. People play the game for different reasons and find different aspects of it fun.

I personally do not find it fun to spend longer than necessary in a dungeon that I have ran hundreds and hundreds of times because people in the party are being uncooperative. And others feel the same way too. Otherwise, all these threads about DPS using their AOEs (this is not the only one of its kind) would not be popping up every couple of days/weeks on here or on the subreddit.

I came from FFXI, not as difficult as this game in terms of execution but still a more fun game in terms of open playstyle. Combat was more oriented towards group synergy versus self rotations in this game. It's like XI was a team based strategy game with coordinated plays while this one is more but not entirely about how good or fancy I can dribble or break ankles or drive down the lane.

This is not FFXI. And even so, this game is STILL a team-based strategy game and one should always do their best to put forth effort to help their TEAM. This means: AOE when you should be instead of being lazy about it. There was literally someone in this thread that said "DRG here. We don't AOE." Does that sound like a TEAM player to you? DRG's AOE may be a little garbage at some levels, or may take a bit of a higher threshold for it to reach a better potency than single-target (would need to do some math here, but I'll avoid adding more to this already-wall-of-text), but DRGs should still AOE when that threshold is reached. That is being a team player.

Not AOEing because "you don't pay my sub" or "I don't feel like it" when asked politely by the rest of the party to do so is NOT being a team player, and thus, if the TEAM decides to kick the NOT TEAM PLAYER, they can do so. Especially if the person not AOEing is being unnecessarily hostile about it when asked or told kindly "Your AOE rotation is more potent in this situation; can you please use it instead of your single-target so that things die faster".

Someone mentioned that 5 X <xpotency> is better than 1 X <xpotency>

If that is true then single target skills potency needs to be increased.

Again, there is no "if's" here. It IS better and a DPS SHOULD AOE when there is an appropriate level of mobs for it to become a net GAIN versus a single target nuke.