When dps dont aoe should they just get kicked from the start?

[Sandpark]

Should the DPS AoE in XP or story dungeons?
Should the Tank Mass Pull in XP or story dungeons?
Should the healer DPS in XP or story dungeons?

Unless every single person says yes then this is debatable and there is no one in the absolute right here in that circumstance.

Just want to point out the fault with the two bolded statements here: the math speaks for itself.

Take a single pack of 5 chained mobs. Single pack. No double or triple chain pulls, just a single pack that consists of 5 mobs chained together. At this point, MOST DPS jobs should be using their AOE skills. I will use a couple different examples here.

BRD: Mage's Ballad + Rain of Death versus Mage's Ballad + Bloodletter
MB + Rain of Death: 100 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 500 potency
MB + Bloodletter: 130 potency (single target) x 1 = 130 potency
RDM: Single-target versus Scatter spam/Enchanted Moulinet
Scatter: 200 potency (Dualcasted AOE; 100 potency per cast) x 5 mobs = 1,000 potency
Enchanted Moulinet: 200 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 1,000 potency**

Single-target (assuming Ver Ready procs): 570 potency (Verfire/Verstone + Verthunder/Veraero; single-target) x 1 mob = 570 potency
Single-target (Jolt II; no Ver Ready proc): 540 potency (Jolt II + Verthunder/Veraero; single target) x 1 mob = 540 potency
Single-target (Impact; no Ver Ready proc): 570 potency (Impact + Verthunder/Veraero; single target) x 1 mob = 570 potency

Single-target melee + Verflare/Verholy nuke: 470 potency (Enchanted melee combo; single-target) + 550 nuke (Verflare/Verholy) x 1 mob = 1,020 potency**

**Consider Enchanted melee combo + nuke versus Enchanted Moulinet-- at 90/90 mana, you get 3 Enchanted Moulinets at 200 potency per mob. So, in this example: 5 mobs at 1,000 potency per Enchanted Moulinet for a total of 3,000 potency versus the single-target 1,020 potency.
MNK: Snap Punch versus Rockbreaker; Bootshine versus Arm of the Destroyer
Snap Punch: 170 potency (single target; flank potency) x 1 mob = 170 potency
Rockbreaker: 130 (AOE) x 5 mobs = 550 potency

Bootshine: 140 potency (single target) x 1 mob = 140 potency
Arm of the Destroyer: 80 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 400 potency
BLM: Fire II versus Fire IV
Fire II: 80 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 400 potency
Fire IV: 260 potency (single target) x 1 mob = 260 potency
The math speaks for itself here. When it comes to a "right," AOE in a "larger pull" (3+ mobs) is the "right" thing to do. The math doesn't lie here. Not trying to argue you specifically, but just saying that you (general "you") can't really argue with the numbers (although I know that some people try to).

Hopefully my math is all correct...double and triple checked everything but I haven't slept in several hours so I'm kinda like @.@ right now....

There is no fault in the statement depending on where you are coming from.

Are you coming from everyone should do 100% best effort because story or normal dungeons are the difficult content? They are not hence we have hard,extreme, savage, super savage.

I am not speaking about math. You may very well be right mathematically about AoE vs Single target. I am speaking about the intent and purpose of normal or MSQ dungeons. The intent or purpose of any FF game in the story or introduction dungeons is to progress, often these fights are not meant to be the epitome of difficult content, but a segue into later gameplay.

If you are coming from a I play rpgs to explore and experience content/story that includes playing/experimenting in a style I enjoy. Then even if the math says otherwise, as long as you can win, then it may be more fun. Games are supposed to be fun first before a job. Locking players out of the basic progress or encouraging players to question to kick is going against that grain.

I came from FFXI, not as difficult as this game in terms of execution but still a more fun game in terms of open playstyle. Combat was more oriented towards group synergy versus self rotations in this game. It's like XI was a team based strategy game with coordinated plays while this one is more but not entirely about how good or fancy I can dribble or break ankles or drive down the lane.

Someone mentioned that 5 X <xpotency> is better than 1 X <xpotency>

If that is true then single target skills potency needs to be increased. My main point is that it's fine if AoE is better than single target, but when it becomes a must have or you get kicked from the casual normal or story MSQ, then it either needs to be nerfed or a better option is to allow players to progress casually through normal and MSQ with friends or npcs. No strenuous barriers to getting to max level, it's already bad enough sometimes you have to come to a halt in story progression due to queues. Let's not make that more terrible by getting kicked because someone doesn't want to AoE or risk getting kicked.

[Hruodig]

There is no fault in the statement depending on where you are coming from.

Are you coming from everyone should do 100% best effort because story or normal dungeons are the difficult content? They are not hence we have hard,extreme, savage, super savage.

You should be giving your all in all content because you respect other people's time. Doesn't matter what content it is, you should always be giving it your all. Don't be lazy for no reason.

I am not speaking about math. You may very well be right mathematically about AoE vs Single target. I am speaking about the intent and purpose of normal or MSQ dungeons. The intent or purpose of any FF game in the story or introduction dungeons is to progress, often these fights are not meant to be the epitome of difficult content, but a segue into later gameplay.

If you are coming from a I play rpgs to explore and experience content/story that includes playing/experimenting in a style I enjoy. Then even if the math says otherwise, as long as you can win, then it may be more fun. Games are supposed to be fun first before a job. Locking players out of the basic progress or encouraging players to question to kick is going against that grain.

This isn't that type of game. There's very little "exploration" or "experimentation" to do. This is how FF XIV combat works: You are given a job. This is what your job does. Now try to do it perfectly. Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a "wrong" way to play these classes. Ice mage is wrong. Monks without positionals are wrong. Dragoons not using blood of the dragon are wrong. Period. You're wasting other people's time because you wanna be some sort of special, unique individual. That's now how this game works.

I came from FFXI, not as difficult as this game in terms of execution but still a more fun game in terms of open playstyle. Combat was more oriented towards group synergy versus self rotations in this game. It's like XI was a team based strategy game with coordinated plays while this one is more but not entirely about how good or fancy I can dribble or break ankles or drive down the lane.

No one cares how things were in FF XI, this isn't that game. This game relies on teamwork too, just in a different way. Everyone has their own job to do, and if they strive to do it well then we succeed.

Someone mentioned that 5 X <xpotency> is better than 1 X <xpotency>

If that is true then single target skills potency needs to be increased. My main point is that it's fine if AoE is better than single target, but when it becomes a must have or you get kicked from the casual normal or story MSQ, then it either needs to be nerfed or a better option is to allow players to progress casually through normal and MSQ with friends or npcs. No strenuous barriers to getting to max level, it's already bad enough sometimes you have to come to a halt in story progression due to queues. Let's not make that more terrible by getting kicked because someone doesn't want to AoE or risk getting kicked.

There's no "may be", or "ifs", about it, AOE is factually, mathmatically better on trash mobs. The number is different depending on the class, but it is better. There's no subjectivity to it. Single target potencies don't need to be buffed-that's stupid. Players just need to understand that you need to make use out of your entire skill kit, according to the situation. It's really not that hard to understand.

[Sandpark]

You should be giving your all in all content because you respect other people's time. Doesn't matter what content it is, you should always be giving it your all. Don't be lazy for no reason.



This isn't that type of game. There's very little "exploration" or "experimentation" to do. This is how FF XIV combat works: You are given a job. This is what your job does. Now try to do it perfectly. Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a "wrong" way to play these classes. Ice mage is wrong. Monks without positionals are wrong. Dragoons not using blood of the dragon are wrong. Period. You're wasting other people's time because you wanna be some sort of special, unique individual. That's now how this game works.



No one cares how things were in FF XI, this isn't that game. This game relies on teamwork too, just in a different way. Everyone has their own job to do, and if they strive to do it well then we succeed.

There's no "may be", or "ifs", about it, AOE is factually, mathmatically better on trash mobs. The number is different depending on the class, but it is better. There's no subjectivity to it. Single target potencies don't need to be buffed-that's stupid. Players just need to understand that you need to make use out of your entire skill kit, according to the situation. It's really not that hard to understand.

You give your all in fate parties when not trying to go for gold? Or when you are just trying to relax and get good xp maybe while multitasking?

My whole point is why am I forced to respect people's time in the place where experience points come easier? I am saying MSQ or normal dungeons should be not party only if it is causing people to kick each other and stunt another's progress.

Point two I agree very much so. Play your role or get your hand spanked, play your role sub optimally and get kicked.

Not really, you perfect your own world but you don't really do teamwork other than dodging mechanics together and manage a few group buffs.

If AoE is undeniably better than single target regardless of job on trash mobs then what I said makes even more sense. No skill or job should be so overpowered that the other skills or jobs be cast from content. That's why nerfs and buffs exist, it's this thing called balance that most mmos try to strive for but never perfect. What you just said is that you should make use of your entire tookit according to the situation. Well look at the OP topic. There is no alternate situations, it's a flat out questioning if players should be kicked for not using a piece of their toolkit in all dungeons, not one particular dungeon.

Lol about me wanting to be a snowflake. That is what whining about other players or glamouring basically boils down to. I am not saying I am above it either but let's be real here. Everyone wants to be a snowflake.

[Hruodig]

You give your all in fate parties when not trying to go for gold? Or when you are just trying to relax and get good xp maybe while multitasking?
My whole point is why am I forced to respect people's time in the place where experience points come easier? I am saying MSQ or normal dungeons should be not party only if it is causing people to kick each other and stunt another's progress.

Point two I agree very much so. Play your role or get your hand spanked, play your role sub optimally and get kicked.

Not really, you perfect your own world but you don't really do teamwork other than dodging mechanics together and manage a few group buffs.

If AoE is undeniably better than single target regardless of job on trash mobs then what I said makes even more sense. No skill or job should be so overpowered that the other skills or jobs be cast from content. That's why nerfs and buffs exist, it's this thing called balance that most mmos try to strive for but never perfect. What you just said is that you should make use of your entire tookit according to the situation. Well look at the OP topic. There is no alternate situations, it's a flat out questioning if players should be kicked for not using a piece of their toolkit in all dungeons, not one particular dungeon.

Lol about me wanting to be a snowflake. That is what whining about other players or glamouring basically boils down to. I am not saying I am above it either but let's be real here. Everyone wants to be a snowflake.

I don't do many fates anymore as there are better ways to level, but I generally strive to play my best no matter what content I'm doing. It's not exactly hard to do.

There's plenty of teamwork you can do in savage content that don't just revolve around buffs. Pld can tempered will and cover ranged dps to negate knockback in o4s. Healers can rescue pld after double attack during neo exdeath to help them maintain uptime. Hell, all speed running is about coordinating team buffs to make sure everything lines up at the most optimal time, and you have to work together to plan that out over a fight. The only reason I can do high dps as a tank is because my healers are skilled enough to know when they need to heal and when they don't, thus I'm relying on them to play their job well so that I can play my job well. It all fits together, and it's great when you're in a group of players who all know what they're doing and they're good at it.

You DO use all your abilities in bog standard dungeons. You aoe trash and you single target rotation on bosses. I'm not really sure what the misunderstanding here is. Would you aoe a single target boss?

[SendohJin]

If AoE is undeniably better than single target regardless of job on trash mobs then what I said makes even more sense. No skill or job should be so overpowered that the other skills or jobs be cast from content. That's why nerfs and buffs exist, it's this thing called balance that most mmos try to strive for but never perfect.

are you implying AOE skills designed to hit multiple mobs should be nerfed so that it does the same damage as single target skills?

you know what happens on the dungeon bosses when you do that? all the single target skills are so overpowered that the AOE skills are not used.

the "content" is the dungeon as a whole, you use AOE skills on trash, you use single target skills on bosses, that's how the game is balanced so that most everything is useful.

[Sandpark]

are you implying AOE skills designed to hit multiple mobs should be nerfed so that it does the same damage as single target skills?

you know what happens on the dungeon bosses when you do that? all the single target skills are so overpowered that the AOE skills are not used.

the "content" is the dungeon as a whole, you use AOE skills on trash, you use single target skills on bosses, that's how the game is balanced so that most everything is useful.

No.

I am saying that the difference should be closer between the two not the same damage. Just enough so that this argument about zone pulling, AoE dps only, healer DPS maybe comes to a close. If you can hit more enemies for more damage at once the resource cost should be higher than it currently is. Maybe open with a high damage AoE or two then due to high cost you need to switch over to single target to apply finishers.

[Rongway]

My whole point is why am I forced to respect people's time

I stopped reading right here, because that's a big problem right there.

[Sandpark]

I stopped reading right here, because that's a big problem right there.

You took me out of context. I was talking about why normal dungeons are party only to begin with besides a design choice.

[HyoMinPark]

There is no fault in the statement depending on where you are coming from.

Are you coming from everyone should do 100% best effort because story or normal dungeons are the difficult content? They are not hence we have hard,extreme, savage, super savage.

I'm coming from if I'm expected to put in effort when it comes to content, I expect others to put in the bare minimum effort when it comes to efficiency. In my eyes, that includes AOEing when appropriate. It doesn't matter if this is Savage or not: AOE versus single-target, the math speaks for itself. There is no contestment here.

I am not speaking about math. You may very well be right mathematically about AoE vs Single target. I am speaking about the intent and purpose of normal or MSQ dungeons. The intent or purpose of any FF game in the story or introduction dungeons is to progress, often these fights are not meant to be the epitome of difficult content, but a segue into later gameplay.

I am right about AOE versus single-target. You quoted my post, but did you even read it? Or comprehend it? Look at the numbers again. There are no "you may very well be right" or "if AOE is better than single-target" when it comes to a certain threshold.

Take a single pack of 5 chained mobs. Single pack. No double or triple chain pulls, just a single pack that consists of 5 mobs chained together. At this point, MOST DPS jobs should be using their AOE skills. I will use a couple different examples here.

BRD: Mage's Ballad + Rain of Death versus Mage's Ballad + Bloodletter
MB + Rain of Death: 100 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 500 potency
MB + Bloodletter: 130 potency (single target) x 1 = 130 potency

RDM: Single-target versus Scatter spam/Enchanted Moulinet
Scatter: 200 potency (Dualcasted AOE; 100 potency per cast) x 5 mobs = 1,000 potency
Enchanted Moulinet: 200 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 1,000 potency**

Single-target (assuming Ver Ready procs): 570 potency (Verfire/Verstone + Verthunder/Veraero; single-target) x 1 mob = 570 potency
Single-target (Jolt II; no Ver Ready proc): 540 potency (Jolt II + Verthunder/Veraero; single target) x 1 mob = 540 potency
Single-target (Impact; no Ver Ready proc): 570 potency (Impact + Verthunder/Veraero; single target) x 1 mob = 570 potency

Single-target melee + Verflare/Verholy nuke: 470 potency (Enchanted melee combo; single-target) + 550 nuke (Verflare/Verholy) x 1 mob = 1,020 potency**

**Consider Enchanted melee combo + nuke versus Enchanted Moulinet-- at 90/90 mana, you get 3 Enchanted Moulinets at 200 potency per mob. So, in this example: 5 mobs at 1,000 potency per Enchanted Moulinet for a total of 3,000 potency versus the single-target 1,020 potency.

MNK: Snap Punch versus Rockbreaker; Bootshine versus Arm of the Destroyer
Snap Punch: 170 potency (single target; flank potency) x 1 mob = 170 potency
Rockbreaker: 130 (AOE) x 5 mobs = 550 potency

Bootshine: 140 potency (single target) x 1 mob = 140 potency
Arm of the Destroyer: 80 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 400 potency

BLM: Fire II versus Fire IV
Fire II: 80 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 400 potency
Fire IV: 260 potency (single target) x 1 mob = 260 potency

The math speaks for itself here. When it comes to a "right," AOE in a "larger pull" (3+ mobs) is the "right" thing to do. The math doesn't lie here. Not trying to argue you specifically, but just saying that you (general "you") can't really argue with the numbers (although I know that some people try to).

If you are coming from a I play rpgs to explore and experience content/story that includes playing/experimenting in a style I enjoy. Then even if the math says otherwise, as long as you can win, then it may be more fun. Games are supposed to be fun first before a job. Locking players out of the basic progress or encouraging players to question to kick is going against that grain.

Fun is a subjective experience. I will give you that. People play the game for different reasons and find different aspects of it fun.

I personally do not find it fun to spend longer than necessary in a dungeon that I have ran hundreds and hundreds of times because people in the party are being uncooperative. And others feel the same way too. Otherwise, all these threads about DPS using their AOEs (this is not the only one of its kind) would not be popping up every couple of days/weeks on here or on the subreddit.

I came from FFXI, not as difficult as this game in terms of execution but still a more fun game in terms of open playstyle. Combat was more oriented towards group synergy versus self rotations in this game. It's like XI was a team based strategy game with coordinated plays while this one is more but not entirely about how good or fancy I can dribble or break ankles or drive down the lane.

This is not FFXI. And even so, this game is STILL a team-based strategy game and one should always do their best to put forth effort to help their TEAM. This means: AOE when you should be instead of being lazy about it. There was literally someone in this thread that said "DRG here. We don't AOE." Does that sound like a TEAM player to you? DRG's AOE may be a little garbage at some levels, or may take a bit of a higher threshold for it to reach a better potency than single-target (would need to do some math here, but I'll avoid adding more to this already-wall-of-text), but DRGs should still AOE when that threshold is reached. That is being a team player.

Not AOEing because "you don't pay my sub" or "I don't feel like it" when asked politely by the rest of the party to do so is NOT being a team player, and thus, if the TEAM decides to kick the NOT TEAM PLAYER, they can do so. Especially if the person not AOEing is being unnecessarily hostile about it when asked or told kindly "Your AOE rotation is more potent in this situation; can you please use it instead of your single-target so that things die faster".

Someone mentioned that 5 X <xpotency> is better than 1 X <xpotency>

If that is true then single target skills potency needs to be increased.

Again, there is no "if's" here. It IS better and a DPS SHOULD AOE when there is an appropriate level of mobs for it to become a net GAIN versus a single target nuke.