As a new player that really likes this game ...

[Snow_Princess]

If you want to be incredibly pedantic, then really most of your damage comes from ruin, but that was not even my point. The core of WHM isn't Stone IV regardless of that being my most frequent cast. It's subjective, but to me and a not insignificant amount of others, the core gameplay for SMN is about the big burst you get from your DWT and Bahamut.

You said it yourself just now why people do not like SMN, again going to my main point, people complain that SMN is not like SMN should be from the lack of pet focus, and you said your self " then really most of your damage comes from ruin" it may not be your point, but it is mine and others in why SMN does not feel like SMN.

[basketofseals]

You said it yourself just now why people do not like SMN, again going to my main point, people complain that SMN is not like SMN should be from the lack of pet focus, and you said your self " then really most of your damage comes from ruin" it may not be your point, but it is mine and others in why SMN does not feel like SMN.

Well then do think that the identity of WHM is stone or MCH is split shot? In fact BLM is the only job I can think of where their core identity is also the majority if their gameplay. A couple like RDM and MNK have a flow as a core which I suppose they're also doing. All tank and healer classes do very little of their actual job, but that doesn't mean that isn't their identity.

[Snow_Princess]

Well then do think that the identity of WHM is stone or MCH is split shot? In fact BLM is the only job I can think of where their core identity is also the majority if their gameplay. A couple like RDM and MNK have a flow as a core which I suppose they're also doing. All tank and healer classes do very little of their actual job, but that doesn't mean that isn't their identity.

I personally do not care if healers DPS more in this game then other MNOs but that does bother people too. If they want to continue to show ideas why healers should heal more that is fine, but I was just explaining to some people what people are complaining about with SMN issues since the replies to the posts don't fit with the point.

For my personal view on WHM, I do find it weird they depend on stone for DPS and not say the likes of holy, dia, banish , etc but it is what it is.

[basketofseals]

I personally do not care if healers DPS more in this game then other MNOs but that does bother people too. If they want to continue to show ideas why healers should heal more that is fine, but I was just explaining to some people what people are complaining about with SMN issues since the replies to the posts don't fit with the point.

For my personal view on WHM, I do find it weird they depend on stone for DPS and not say the likes of holy, dia, banish , etc but it is what it is.

You're completely missing your own point. You've said it's a problem that the majority of a SMN's damage is not the summon itself but Ruin or DoTs. Why do you not think this also applies to the majority of other jobs. Healers actively minimize their heal time and tanks only infrequently have to worry about maintaining enmity and mitigating hits, but that's unarguably their identity. Even within roles there's identities that still don't make a majority of a job's gameplay like AST cards and NIN mudras.

You can't compare here. Summons in older FF games was actually used and you did indeed use the actuall ''gods'' the primal itself.

SMN in old games were just BLM+ though. Maybe some people would be happy with that, but personally I think it would be a step back.

[Snow_Princess]

You're completely missing your own point. You've said it's a problem that the majority of a SMN's damage is not the summon itself but Ruin or DoTs. Why do you not think this also applies to the majority of other jobs. Healers actively minimize their heal time and tanks only infrequently have to worry about maintainingenmity and mitigating hits, but that's unarguably their identity. Even within roles there's identities that still don't make a majority of a job's gameplay like AST cards and NIN mudras.



SMN in old games were just BLM+ though. Maybe some people would be happy with that, but personally I think it would be a step back.

WHM * or basically combining whm and SMN. But again you killed your own view, right now SMN IS BLM+ !!!! it is given BLM spells -.-

How can you tell me I am missing my own point when you are not getting it? lol The post you quoted, for me to reply to it, would be repeating myself. SMN is clunky, it does not flow, it is not pet focused, as you said casting ruin II and dots, no FF SMN has that feel. For the other job comment I replied to that, you are trying to argue 2 different things with me trying pull that on WHM. The issue first off is how much healing the game requires, it has too much downtime and I do not care for the debate of healer DPS vs "you don't pay for my sub I should heal only!!" and the fact the elements used in casting WHM spells is not banish, dia, etc...

I already stated I did not want to go down that road, and yet you are making me claim I am missing my own point, makes sense....

[basketofseals]

WHM * or basically combining whm and SMN. But again you killed your own view, right now SMN IS BLM+ !!!! it is given BLM spells -.-

SMN is nothing like BLM, or at least nothing like FFXIV BLM. I don't think anyone is going to agree with you here.

How can you tell me I am missing my own point when you are not getting it? lol The post you quoted, for me to reply to it, would be repeating myself. SMN is clunky, it does not flow, it is not pet focused, as you said casting ruin II and dots, no FF SMN has that feel. For the other job comment I replied to that, you are trying to argue 2 different things with me trying pull that on WHM. The issue first off is how much healing the game requires, it has too much downtime and I do not care for the debate of healer DPS vs "you don't pay for my sub I should heal only!!" and the fact the elements used in casting WHM spells is not banish, dia, etc...

I already stated I did not want to go down that road, and yet you are making me claim I am missing my own point, makes sense....

Because you're strawmanning. Healer balance was never my point. In fact you've tunnel visioned on that and ignored my other examples. Tanks mitigate important damage less than once every minute, but they're still tanks. AST and NIN only use their unique mechanic a couple of times per minute, but that's still a core part of their identity. Lily is practically the face of SCH even though you only interact with her only 1-3 times a minute, and even though Bahamut+Egi doesn't make up 90% of your damage, that doesn't mean SMN is just a DoT mage which was the original point I was refuting.

If you want SMN to just pop out a summon or a single spell and disappear after it's over then that's not an opinion I have an issue with.

[akaneakki]

SMN is nothing like BLM, or at least nothing like FFXIV BLM. I don't think anyone is going to agree with you here..

I agree with him/her. And I also think BLM in this game is also super weird.

[WhiteArchmage]

WHM * or basically combining whm and SMN. But again you killed your own view, right now SMN IS BLM+ !!!! it is given BLM spells -.-

Iiiii'm gonna butt in right here: in FFIII, Evokers could do either a support effect or attack with their Summons, Summoners could only do the attack versions but were more powerful. In IV, Rydia (THE Summoner for the old-school fans) STARTS with White Magic, Black Magic and Summon, but when you get her back, she's lost White Magic and only has Black Magic and Summons; in V, it doesn't really matter since you could switch their 2nd skill (you were better off with Black Magic, though), VI to VIII didn't have a "Summoner" per se and it was only on IX and X where they were White Mages with Summons; in XI (as far as I know) they were TREATED as WHM with Summons but not intended as such. The REAL problem with Summoner SERIES-WIDE (and I agree, why are we even discussing that here?) is its lack of a consistent identity.

The lore doesn't allow for a Summoner the way the playerbase wants it; back when the game came for PS3, the system didn't allow for it (imagine 30 Ifrits or Bahamuts at the same time during a hunt...my boyfriend kept complaining about how EGIS would load while PCs wouldn't in PvP, now imagine if those were Summons taller than a Roegadyn); and their basic mechanics series-wise wouldn't allow it (One of their consistencies is having a looong cast-time to offset the power of Summons, imagine having ALL your spells with the cast time of Summon), so does SMN need reworks so the fans stop complaining about it every month? yes, now can we let this thread die already?

[Jybril]

The lore doesn't allow for a Summoner the way the playerbase wants it...
so does SMN need reworks so the fans stop complaining about it every month? yes, now can we let this thread die already?

Lore shouldn't be the reason why Jobs can't be changed...I don't care about lore if it's going to hinder gameplay.
Every expac, SMN has been a different thing.
ARR: DoT hero with a booger.
HW: Envoker/Invoker.
SB: What SMN should of been.
Our pets, mainly Garuda with the ocassional Ifrit for mobs is there just to be there, it's like SE forgot about them or just don't care anymore.
Rework Lore then if you wanna go that way about it. I only agree SMN is suffering an identity crisis.

[akaneakki]

Well then do think that the identity of WHM is stone or MCH is split shot?

You can't compare here. Summons in older FF games was actually used and you did indeed use the actuall ''gods'' the primal itself.