As a new player that really likes this game ...

[ElHeggunte]

Since we're comparing the three of them, why wouldn't you want SMN to play more like Warlock? Admittedly I know next to nothing about either one of them, but both XIV's SMN and WoW's Warlock look a lot more hands-on with their pets than what XI had. In XI all I ever saw was a whole lot of sitting around or being a glorified healer, only bringing your avatars out once a minute or so to cast a Blood Pact before immediately sending them away again. Sounds dull to me. XI's is more like a "traditional" Final Fantasy Summoner and it also seems traditionally boring since it's gameplay that works better in a singleplayer RPG where you have other characters to manage at the same time rather than a more action-oriented MMO where you're only ever in control of yourself.

But this is from the perspective of someone who never actually used their SMN (I collected the base avatars and Fenrir with my MNK just because I could, left my SMN at lvl1) and only played from launch up until mid-WotG so I may be wrong and/or things may have changed since I quit. In fact, I have a vague recollection that someone on the forums explained the changes to me once, but I can't remember.

[Snow_Princess]

Since we're comparing the three of them, why wouldn't you want SMN to play more like Warlock? Admittedly I know next to nothing about either one of them, but both XIV's SMN and WoW's Warlock look a lot more hands-on with their pets than what XI had. In XI all I ever saw was a whole lot of sitting around or being aglorified healer, only bringing your avatars out once a minute or so to cast a Blood Pact before immediately sending them away again. Sounds dull to me. XI's is more like a "traditional" Final Fantasy Summoner and it also seems traditionally boring since it's gameplay that works better in a singleplayer RPG where you have other characters to manage at the same time rather than a more action-oriented MMO where you're only ever in control of yourself.

But this is from the perspective of someone who never actually used their SMN (I collected the base avatars and Fenrir with my MNK just because I could, left my SMN at lvl1) and only played from launch up until mid-WotG so I may be wrong and/or things may have changed since I quit. In fact, I have a vague recollection that someone on the forums explained the changes to me once, but I can't remember.

We are not talking about the downtime, FFXI had downtime for all caster jobs because how the game fundamentally worked, if you tried to brig anything from FFXIV to FFXI, it be insanely broken. So I am more leaning to the idea you are not understanding what people mean.

People are talking about how SMN is pet focused, something not in FFXIV. In FFXIV the focus is in dots and dot spreading and feels underwhelming. It does not feel like any SMN in FF, and does not bring the feel you are commanding huge gods, like all other FF do. you are simply commanding a chicken nugget, a chicken, or a jalapeno pepper (Hope this is right, cuz I see no H sound, but google..) ...:
https://youtu.be/eHTCwDXVeWY?t=10
credit to that for the joke names.
But ya that is the point people mean.

I only really saw when it was a garbage healing job which became summoner for a single ability about once every three minutes, but I'm going to assume that it changed drastically since release.

DoTs are hardly thecore of SMN right now. It's certainly a part of it, but the big deal is summoning Bahamut. Summons may have previously had a story in pre-X games, but when it came to gameplay they boiled down to a spell with an overly long animation. Obviously this is incredibly subjective, but this is the first time in a long while where it actually feels like summoning. Egis are lame and they could be axed for all I care, but Bahamut really fits the job fantasy for me.

Also saying that Egis are anywhere near WoW demons is just wrong. Egis are DoTs that are tied to a model. Lock pets actually have niches and differing uses depending on spec, encounter, and playstyle.

Parse SMN without using dots, then parse SMN doing everything but no Bahamut, I like to see the results.

[basketofseals]

Parse SMN without using dots, then parse SMN doing everything but no Bahamut, I like to see the results.

If you want to be incredibly pedantic, then really most of your damage comes from ruin, but that was not even my point. The core of WHM isn't Stone IV regardless of that being my most frequent cast. It's subjective, but to me and a not insignificant amount of others, the core gameplay for SMN is about the big burst you get from your DWT and Bahamut.

[Snow_Princess]

If you want to be incredibly pedantic, then really most of your damage comes from ruin, but that was not even my point. The core of WHM isn't Stone IV regardless of that being my most frequent cast. It's subjective, but to me and a not insignificant amount of others, the core gameplay for SMN is about the big burst you get from your DWT and Bahamut.

You said it yourself just now why people do not like SMN, again going to my main point, people complain that SMN is not like SMN should be from the lack of pet focus, and you said your self " then really most of your damage comes from ruin" it may not be your point, but it is mine and others in why SMN does not feel like SMN.

[basketofseals]

You said it yourself just now why people do not like SMN, again going to my main point, people complain that SMN is not like SMN should be from the lack of pet focus, and you said your self " then really most of your damage comes from ruin" it may not be your point, but it is mine and others in why SMN does not feel like SMN.

Well then do think that the identity of WHM is stone or MCH is split shot? In fact BLM is the only job I can think of where their core identity is also the majority if their gameplay. A couple like RDM and MNK have a flow as a core which I suppose they're also doing. All tank and healer classes do very little of their actual job, but that doesn't mean that isn't their identity.

[Snow_Princess]

Well then do think that the identity of WHM is stone or MCH is split shot? In fact BLM is the only job I can think of where their core identity is also the majority if their gameplay. A couple like RDM and MNK have a flow as a core which I suppose they're also doing. All tank and healer classes do very little of their actual job, but that doesn't mean that isn't their identity.

I personally do not care if healers DPS more in this game then other MNOs but that does bother people too. If they want to continue to show ideas why healers should heal more that is fine, but I was just explaining to some people what people are complaining about with SMN issues since the replies to the posts don't fit with the point.

For my personal view on WHM, I do find it weird they depend on stone for DPS and not say the likes of holy, dia, banish , etc but it is what it is.

[basketofseals]

I personally do not care if healers DPS more in this game then other MNOs but that does bother people too. If they want to continue to show ideas why healers should heal more that is fine, but I was just explaining to some people what people are complaining about with SMN issues since the replies to the posts don't fit with the point.

For my personal view on WHM, I do find it weird they depend on stone for DPS and not say the likes of holy, dia, banish , etc but it is what it is.

You're completely missing your own point. You've said it's a problem that the majority of a SMN's damage is not the summon itself but Ruin or DoTs. Why do you not think this also applies to the majority of other jobs. Healers actively minimize their heal time and tanks only infrequently have to worry about maintaining enmity and mitigating hits, but that's unarguably their identity. Even within roles there's identities that still don't make a majority of a job's gameplay like AST cards and NIN mudras.

You can't compare here. Summons in older FF games was actually used and you did indeed use the actuall ''gods'' the primal itself.

SMN in old games were just BLM+ though. Maybe some people would be happy with that, but personally I think it would be a step back.

[akaneakki]

Well then do think that the identity of WHM is stone or MCH is split shot?

You can't compare here. Summons in older FF games was actually used and you did indeed use the actuall ''gods'' the primal itself.

[RichardButte]

Since we're comparing the three of them, why wouldn't you want SMN to play more like Warlock? Admittedly I know next to nothing about either one of them, but both XIV's SMN and WoW's Warlock look a lot more hands-on with their pets than what XI had.

Summoner should probably play a lot like WoW's Demonology warlock, which basically summons temporary armies of minions to do damage for them (and their direct damage spells do more when they have more minions out).

This is what SMN should be, but XIV's SMN is closer to WoW's Affliction warlock spec, where you have a pet that does SOME damage but the real emphasis is on all of the DoTs and debuffs the warlock/SMN places on their target.

If anything, SMN should be the job that focuses almost purely on summoning lots of egis to do different things (including multiple egis at once that are of course temporary) and hand all the DoT focus over to another class where it would fit better.

Green Mage would actually work better as the DoT-heavy class, as that's it's thing:

From http://www.thefullwiki.org/Final_Fan...ses#Green_Mage

Green Mage

Although often combined with the role of the Time Mage, the Green Mage (緑魔道士 Midori Madōshi?) is occasionally a separate class, specializing in casting status effects or removing them. They can cast single/multiple variants of staples such as Poison, Sleep and Blind and their reversals, as well as newer effects such as Leap (increasing agility). Green Magic does not include spells that cause HP damage, with the exception of some damage over time spells; nor does it typically include curative spells. Like most magic users they have relatively low HP (though higher that that of a Black Mage in general) but greater attack power than other caster classes, as they wield maces and hammers. As can be expected, the typical uniform for a Green Mage is dyed green. Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift also features the class, exclusive to the Viera race. In Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy Tactics: The War of the Lions the Oracle, or Mystic class specializes in casting negative status effects and dispelling positive ones.

I feel like they'd have to flesh it out a bit more, but if there was any class that was ever going to go full-on DoT crazy, it would be Green Mage.