As a new player that really likes this game ...

[Snow_Princess]

Since we're comparing the three of them, why wouldn't you want SMN to play more like Warlock? Admittedly I know next to nothing about either one of them, but both XIV's SMN and WoW's Warlock look a lot more hands-on with their pets than what XI had. In XI all I ever saw was a whole lot of sitting around or being aglorified healer, only bringing your avatars out once a minute or so to cast a Blood Pact before immediately sending them away again. Sounds dull to me. XI's is more like a "traditional" Final Fantasy Summoner and it also seems traditionally boring since it's gameplay that works better in a singleplayer RPG where you have other characters to manage at the same time rather than a more action-oriented MMO where you're only ever in control of yourself.

But this is from the perspective of someone who never actually used their SMN (I collected the base avatars and Fenrir with my MNK just because I could, left my SMN at lvl1) and only played from launch up until mid-WotG so I may be wrong and/or things may have changed since I quit. In fact, I have a vague recollection that someone on the forums explained the changes to me once, but I can't remember.

We are not talking about the downtime, FFXI had downtime for all caster jobs because how the game fundamentally worked, if you tried to brig anything from FFXIV to FFXI, it be insanely broken. So I am more leaning to the idea you are not understanding what people mean.

People are talking about how SMN is pet focused, something not in FFXIV. In FFXIV the focus is in dots and dot spreading and feels underwhelming. It does not feel like any SMN in FF, and does not bring the feel you are commanding huge gods, like all other FF do. you are simply commanding a chicken nugget, a chicken, or a jalapeno pepper (Hope this is right, cuz I see no H sound, but google..) ...:
https://youtu.be/eHTCwDXVeWY?t=10
credit to that for the joke names.
But ya that is the point people mean.

I only really saw when it was a garbage healing job which became summoner for a single ability about once every three minutes, but I'm going to assume that it changed drastically since release.

DoTs are hardly thecore of SMN right now. It's certainly a part of it, but the big deal is summoning Bahamut. Summons may have previously had a story in pre-X games, but when it came to gameplay they boiled down to a spell with an overly long animation. Obviously this is incredibly subjective, but this is the first time in a long while where it actually feels like summoning. Egis are lame and they could be axed for all I care, but Bahamut really fits the job fantasy for me.

Also saying that Egis are anywhere near WoW demons is just wrong. Egis are DoTs that are tied to a model. Lock pets actually have niches and differing uses depending on spec, encounter, and playstyle.

Parse SMN without using dots, then parse SMN doing everything but no Bahamut, I like to see the results.

[basketofseals]

Parse SMN without using dots, then parse SMN doing everything but no Bahamut, I like to see the results.

If you want to be incredibly pedantic, then really most of your damage comes from ruin, but that was not even my point. The core of WHM isn't Stone IV regardless of that being my most frequent cast. It's subjective, but to me and a not insignificant amount of others, the core gameplay for SMN is about the big burst you get from your DWT and Bahamut.

[Snow_Princess]

If you want to be incredibly pedantic, then really most of your damage comes from ruin, but that was not even my point. The core of WHM isn't Stone IV regardless of that being my most frequent cast. It's subjective, but to me and a not insignificant amount of others, the core gameplay for SMN is about the big burst you get from your DWT and Bahamut.

You said it yourself just now why people do not like SMN, again going to my main point, people complain that SMN is not like SMN should be from the lack of pet focus, and you said your self " then really most of your damage comes from ruin" it may not be your point, but it is mine and others in why SMN does not feel like SMN.

[basketofseals]

You said it yourself just now why people do not like SMN, again going to my main point, people complain that SMN is not like SMN should be from the lack of pet focus, and you said your self " then really most of your damage comes from ruin" it may not be your point, but it is mine and others in why SMN does not feel like SMN.

Well then do think that the identity of WHM is stone or MCH is split shot? In fact BLM is the only job I can think of where their core identity is also the majority if their gameplay. A couple like RDM and MNK have a flow as a core which I suppose they're also doing. All tank and healer classes do very little of their actual job, but that doesn't mean that isn't their identity.

[Snow_Princess]

Well then do think that the identity of WHM is stone or MCH is split shot? In fact BLM is the only job I can think of where their core identity is also the majority if their gameplay. A couple like RDM and MNK have a flow as a core which I suppose they're also doing. All tank and healer classes do very little of their actual job, but that doesn't mean that isn't their identity.

I personally do not care if healers DPS more in this game then other MNOs but that does bother people too. If they want to continue to show ideas why healers should heal more that is fine, but I was just explaining to some people what people are complaining about with SMN issues since the replies to the posts don't fit with the point.

For my personal view on WHM, I do find it weird they depend on stone for DPS and not say the likes of holy, dia, banish , etc but it is what it is.

[basketofseals]

I personally do not care if healers DPS more in this game then other MNOs but that does bother people too. If they want to continue to show ideas why healers should heal more that is fine, but I was just explaining to some people what people are complaining about with SMN issues since the replies to the posts don't fit with the point.

For my personal view on WHM, I do find it weird they depend on stone for DPS and not say the likes of holy, dia, banish , etc but it is what it is.

You're completely missing your own point. You've said it's a problem that the majority of a SMN's damage is not the summon itself but Ruin or DoTs. Why do you not think this also applies to the majority of other jobs. Healers actively minimize their heal time and tanks only infrequently have to worry about maintaining enmity and mitigating hits, but that's unarguably their identity. Even within roles there's identities that still don't make a majority of a job's gameplay like AST cards and NIN mudras.

You can't compare here. Summons in older FF games was actually used and you did indeed use the actuall ''gods'' the primal itself.

SMN in old games were just BLM+ though. Maybe some people would be happy with that, but personally I think it would be a step back.

[Snow_Princess]

You're completely missing your own point. You've said it's a problem that the majority of a SMN's damage is not the summon itself but Ruin or DoTs. Why do you not think this also applies to the majority of other jobs. Healers actively minimize their heal time and tanks only infrequently have to worry about maintainingenmity and mitigating hits, but that's unarguably their identity. Even within roles there's identities that still don't make a majority of a job's gameplay like AST cards and NIN mudras.



SMN in old games were just BLM+ though. Maybe some people would be happy with that, but personally I think it would be a step back.

WHM * or basically combining whm and SMN. But again you killed your own view, right now SMN IS BLM+ !!!! it is given BLM spells -.-

How can you tell me I am missing my own point when you are not getting it? lol The post you quoted, for me to reply to it, would be repeating myself. SMN is clunky, it does not flow, it is not pet focused, as you said casting ruin II and dots, no FF SMN has that feel. For the other job comment I replied to that, you are trying to argue 2 different things with me trying pull that on WHM. The issue first off is how much healing the game requires, it has too much downtime and I do not care for the debate of healer DPS vs "you don't pay for my sub I should heal only!!" and the fact the elements used in casting WHM spells is not banish, dia, etc...

I already stated I did not want to go down that road, and yet you are making me claim I am missing my own point, makes sense....

[akaneakki]

Well then do think that the identity of WHM is stone or MCH is split shot?

You can't compare here. Summons in older FF games was actually used and you did indeed use the actuall ''gods'' the primal itself.