I feel like raiding is pointless in this game

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'm merely suggesting people re examine their ideas of "easy" if "easy" is something 99% of the players in the game struggle with it's lost it's meaning.

A9S had over 100,000 attempts, with a large portion of clears given the subsequent attempts on A10S. That is over 20% of the active playerbase. So can we drop this notion Savage is something barely anyone does? V1S is basically a faceroll. Savage content shouldn't be clearable with 9-10 deaths nor should it go down in twenty minutes. Now that doesn't mean it needs to be a grueling challenge either.

[Daralii]

Hm, this brings up a good point. Almost every major fight in this game consists of fights against a single boss with a large set of mechanics.

I started playing after HW release, but I went back to do Coil and noticed how different it was compared to Alexander (and all of HW, really). Many Coil instances had a dungeon-like prelude of sorts before the actual boss itself. One coil instance was essentially a dungeon in itself! So why has SE shifted away from that kind of design towards something that's really more like Trials that are just called raids?

Bosses are the meat of raids, and I can only assume that it's much easier for SE to develop trial-esque 8-mans and leave the more traditional raid model for 24-mans.

[Lemuria]

A9S had over 100,000 attempts, with a large portion of clears given the subsequent attempts on A10S. That is over 20% of the active playerbase.

That 'large potion' doesn't account for people re-doing the raids for drops, so it's meaningless data. Also, just because something is attempted, doesn't mean it's been cleared. Lots of people attempted the coils, but still failed a lot, and still more were 'carried' by far better players or simply paid for their runs.

I have my sincerest doubts that the entire 20% of the playerbase has beaten them, and even assuming those figures are accurate it still shows the majority (80%) haven't which only serves to strengthen the argument that was made originally.

Still, the original post boils down to one thing. What is fun? For me, fun would be variation. As others have mentioned, I'd like to see dungeons and raids that weren't so mind-numbingly linear. Every single dungeon or raid in this game boils down to following a single path on rails, with very little exploration. Where's the adventure in that? I want immersive expansive dungeons I can get lost in. I want twisting corridors and winding streets. Bosses which aren't just sitting on their arses waiting for you to arrive, but actively hunting you down or waiting to ambush from the shadows.

For some reason, the developers seem a bit less imaginative with every piece of content falling into the same molds. That, more than anything else, is why I feel a lot of high level content feels tired. They've been using the same formula since A Realm Reborn was born.

[Chiramu]

The "raids" in FFXIV are trials. They are single boss encounters like a trial. I know the devs were disheartened when people found an easier way to run Coils, but I think raids would have been more enjoyable if they were proper raids and not trials, labelled as raids.

I remember running Kharazan back in The Burning Crusade and you could get three bosses down in one raiding night. You all leave and come back to the raid to complete more of the raid later in the week. The "raids" in FFXIV are nothing like that . You just wipe on the boss, learn where you need to stand to not die, pummel the boss through their ridiculous amount of health and that's it.

I think more could be done to make raids, raids and less like a hard trial fight.

[Penthea]

Speaking for myself, i'd answer that a raid to be worth it is to be entertaining and fun even after 50+ runs.

You shouldn't expect content to still feel amazing after 50+ runs. Anything, no matter how epic, has a limited time for feeling fresh and fun. Even the toughest fights I loved most started to get old after a while. Repetition does that.

You seem like you're burnt out to be honest. Most raiders, even if they don't find the content to be very interesting, will at least stay for the prizes (loot, titles, etc) but not even that interests you. You're also criticising the current tier for doing things other tiers have done. For whatever reason it didn't bother you back then but it does now.

I think you need to take a break. Play something else very different for a while to clean out the staleness everyone eventually gets from doing the same sort of content all the time. Or at the very least do that between raids.

[Enyalios]

Raiding in 14 is missing a couple of major things. In coil you had to travel to the boss, sure trash is annoying but it was part of the journey. Also having to physically travel to the zone, seeing all the raiders, your friends, checking people's gear, getting gear envy. It made the fights more worthwhile, made you want to be there

[Driavna]

Your problem is burnout+nostalgia goggles and also looks like you don't enjoy FFXIV 8 man raid system. IMO, the" too easy" is a poor excuse, you are no longer having fun and that's it. Also, be honest with your static so they can find a replacement.

I have been raiding since WoW Classic and once a content is cleared all the novelty wear off and is just farming the same over and over to be ready for the next tier. However the progression here "is worst", 4 bosses per tier don't have much room for scaling but it's a trade off for a unique raiding mode for casuals instead.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

Hence why I specifically mentioned A10S. Those numbers carried over into A10S, thus many people who attempted A9S were clearing as it makes little sense for them to skip ahead.

Welcome to MMOs. No content has a majority when looked at individual. The same census shows less than 50% of active characters complete the MSQ. Should the devs stop putting effort into crafting a good narrative? What about crafting? I wager even less people craft than raid. The entire purpose behind theme park styled MMOs is "something for everyone." It's disingenuous to pick a single piece of content and compare it broadly against everything else.

Fun is subjective. While I certainly prefer Alte Roite to Refurbishor, neither poses any real threat, essentially reducing the already small amount of encounters to three. Keeping in mind, Savage is supposed to be harder content. Regardless, why do you think we don't have content like you purposed? Because it'd be difficult for the wider playerbase and the devs are reluctant to do anything that isn't faceroll easy outside of Savage; Shinryu being the notable exception. Frankly speaking, I have long held the belief players are so bad at this game due to the endless hand holding. There isn't a gradual curve to encourage players to get better. It's laughably easy (every normal mode encounter) to do these mechanics or wipe (Savage.) Even the EX primals suffered in that respect. Setting aside difficulty in a numbers sense, I would adore PotD-like mechanics in dungeons. Alas, that would be too much for the "casual" player. At least that appears to be the dev team's mindset.

[Dzian]

I see this mentioned a lot, as a rather midcore raider myself. But I always have to ask, what WOULD make raiding seem worth it, assuming all the other systems of the game are kept intact? Hardly anyone ever really asks this.

Not the op but I've given loads of answers to this question various times. for me personally just a sense of prestige would help. I don't bother raiding generally because whats challenging today is cake tomorrow. and I think it's no wonder players don't bother and just wait till they can roflstomp it.

I did coil back in ARR it was tough and challenging, and there was a sense of accomplishment in having smashed it and wearing "the final witness" title with pride. there was a sense of prestige to it although very short lived. because soon as they added the ability to unsync it and rofl stomp it at 60 people were 3 manning t13 and that title lost all of its prestige.

alex savage never bothered with simply because the rewards weren't worth it. gordias gear was 210 for example but not even good enough to enter midas with because when midas launched you had crafted 220... midan gear was 240 but when creator launched you had crafted 250... the rewards then had no value not even entry level for the next tier.... the value of the gear just isn't worth the effort required to get it. because it'll just be replaced next patch...

I have to agree, but part of it is because I thought Coil was amazing and had that real epic feel.
I didn't feel that with Alex, and I am getting a similar feeling with Omega..

Coil was great. I think a big part of what made it feel so amazing was it felt like you were going somewhere. all those victories unlocking a little bit more of that story and giving you that little push to find out what happens next.. it kind of had that old CoP feel to it... alex and omega just don't have that.. because the story modes are so easy they lose a lot of that epic feeling... thinks that are easy aren't satisfying or rewarding. there's a whole science to this ( basically the bigger the challenge you over come the bigger the dopamine hit you get from it) so when everything is as easy as it is those hits are incredibly small and unsatidfying. which is also why I think player retention is so bad.. but that's another topic.

I'm merely suggesting people re examine their ideas of "easy" if "easy" is something 99% of the players in the game struggle with it's lost it's meaning.

to be fair the reason 99% of players struggle isn't because it's hard. its just because it isn't "face roll" you can ice mage 95% of the game while watching Netflix. that's the only reason the other 5% is perceived as hard, everything being so scripted only makes it easier.

Basically I think the game needs more randomness, more focus on visual indicators, not "oh i know when this is coming, oh I know it is doom > fire > ice > fire (where you need stop moving > ice need to move x2 (thunder III aoe somewhere)

one example of my point. every single time its exactly the same....

The "raids" in FFXIV are trials. They are single boss encounters like a trial..

This is also true. I wish the endgame actually had some real structure to it. not just queue in kill a boss and done. but some actual structure. XI's endgame was generally much better because of it's structure. limbus was one of the best endgame things I ever did in any mmo ive played. you went through various wings/zones in order to unlock the boss. something like that would be cool in xiv and might actually give fcs some content to do and work on together as an fc. rather than a group of indivuals just soling together.

You shouldn't expect content to still feel amazing after 50+ runs. Anything, no matter how epic, has a limited time for feeling fresh and fun. Even the toughest fights I loved most started to get old after a while. Repetition does that..

I think the problem here is the amount of content there is to do... there's never much to do at any time. that's why its so repetitive. and gets tedious so quickly.

4.1 will likely see a new 24 man raid. and because that's pretty much all there will be to do people will run it to death 15-20 times a week for there weekly drop if rng isn't kind to them. but hey there's nothing else to do.... so its no wonderthat by the time 4.2 drops everyone is sick to death of it.

if players had a lot more variety then things would stay fresher a lot longer.

Generally then I fully agree with the OP Raiding is utterly pointless in this game.
It just isn't worth the hassle. the rewards are junk, the challenge will be gone tomorrow, and just no point.. gear is replaced to quick to make it even worth bothering with.. biggest reasons why I don't bother melding stuff cos. I could fit my sam out in full t6s. spend 7-8 million doing so. and have all its gear replaced in a month... waste of 7-8 million gil... same with BiS. who cares???? just use whatever the highest ilvl cos it'll only be replaced...

everything is just so temporary and I think that destroys a lot of motivation or reason to invest.

players spend 15-20 million on a cashmere poncho for glamour / or a Pegasus whistle for a mount. but materia for there gear?? you're kidding right.....

Regarding super savage. If that stays at its difficulty. i.e can never be over geared / unsynced then i'd probably be a hell of a lot more motivated to do it. because it would hold its worth over time.....
If however it follows everything else and ends being done as easy as savage coils can be rofl stomped then I just wont bother

[Niyuka]

Its a complex problem, but there are no raids anymore in FFXIV the way I think it must be looked at it.

I also never understood why anyone would need a "catch-up" 24-man faceroll 3 months after you got better gear for almost-free (tomestones) anyway, but I digress.


The basic problem is that raids in the past, more successful raid MMOs were more than just a boss arena. They were actual places, dungeons on a larger scale or otherwise unique-looking environments that you traveled through, they were often physically located in a spot where you had to journey to (even if its just 2 minutes), and they had trash pulls, sometimes puzzles or jumping challenges and similar stuff, which turned a simple boss in the end into a (short, but still) journey.

FFXIV are much like a cut-down version of an action movie that only has the fight scenes. Yes, some people generally fast-forward watch any movie anyway, but the journey gives things more depth. While each trash pull, each hallway and each room without a boss isnt interesting by itself (and thus was cut), it contributes to the experience of going on a journey with a lot of other people.
This is why Coil is considered better than Alex or Deltascape.

The rewards are another point entirely. FFXIV is so scared of the wrath of the bad players, it doesnt allow true casuals , let alone hardcore players, to shine or ever get anything truly worthwhile. Loot is quickly replaced (faster than in the superior WoW, in this regard) and pointless, because for fear of these exact bad ice mages and DPS DRKs, the melee RDMs and spear-throwing DRGs, you dont need good stats to beat bosses.

Which is my last point: There is no progress through a raid. You dont need the items from Boss 1 to beat the enrage of Boss 4. If you can enter it, you pretty much can beat it.

And this means that SE have, for fear of bad players probably, removed the feeling of progression from the entire raid content, in multiple regards. No gear progression, no geographical progression, no story progression, very little difficulty progression (right now, there are 2 difficult fights in the entire current content, and 10+ on the same low level).

Myself and my friends are true casuals. We play a few times per week, have one or two jobs at 70, and generally dont even always cap our tomestones or deltascape crystalloids. We are, supposedly, the largest base of players. None of us feel (we talk about it a lot) as if this game caters to us, it seems to caters to people much less interested and willing to do stuff. We seem to already be considered the elite - at age 35-40, with kids, jobs, other games and hobbies, we are too skilled, too hardcore, too invested to be allowed a difficulty or raid design that challenges us.