The Raid community as we know it

[Clawbriar]

Literally who

[Pori_Dessu]

I get the feeling a big part of the people in this post have either not watched the whole SOTR episode, or watched it and just heard what they wanted to. In the episode itself, he tells the story behind the Unchained thingy, and it goes like this: He's MTing for DF, and there's this Warrior OT'ing in Defiance (OT'ing in tank stance) while he's stance dancing to maximize DPS. At one point the OT gets aggro and dies (I believe, can't remember every detail of it), and calls out on Xeno for losing aggro, and Xeno's reply is "Why are you OT'ing in Defiance?" (Notice how he doesn't go aggressive on this random person) for which the Warrior in question replies: "Unchained, bro!". That's the origin of the meme.
What's important in this little segment of the show: He doesn't go "aggressive" (Can't really consider the way he speaks aggressive when literally everyone in my family drops F bombs all the time in casual situations) on random guys unless they ignore advices, and insist on repeating mistakes that were already pointed out. The way he acts with his static group (All friends btw) shouldn't matter to any of us, even if he does stream the game as his streams are for a public that don't mind/like his persona.

[Eli85]

If you truly believe everything you just wrote, you must be an incredibly one dimensional teacher. There are different types of raid groups for this very reason. Those comfortable, positive environment raid groups you talk about? Those are like that because no one is fucking up and wiping every single pull OR because no one in the group cares about actually killing the boss. You being uncomfortable when a raid leader calls out someone who screwed up doesn't mean that it's the case for everyone. Being comfortable does not equal for me what it does for you. If I'm in a raid where the raid leader is constantly telling everyone "haha i screwed that up a lot when I started too, no worries, we'll get there on the 1500th wipe no problem!" That makes me uncomfortable. Why should something that makes me uncomfortable be less important than something that makes you uncomfortable, just because what you find uncomfortable is aggressive?

Resorting to insults now? Classy.

Why do you think raid groups tend to be revolving doors? People get tired of the bullying mentality of raid groups and choose to move on. The raid community will not grow positively until positive atmospheres are reinforced. And yes, you can have mature, respectful, positive atmospheres with bleeding edge progression. I've been in them. I've lead them. Sadly, they are not common, and thus potential raiders are driven away from raiding.

edit: Also, to be a little bit snippy, I'll take my years of education and on-the-job training in classrooms over your, what experience exactly?

[akaneakki]

Why do you think raid groups tend to be revolving doors? People get tired of the bullying mentality of raid groups and choose to move on. The raid community will not grow positively until positive atmospheres are ?

To reply to you, about the community wont grow positive atmpsphere for raiding wont be growing....
You see, I actually think there's been more grow on bad players these days than it used to be. In fact since we grow on new players almost everyday, makes the numbers even higher. Why? Because nobody really ''educates'' them. There are serval reasons so. Apperently telling a guy how to do fire over ice every cast or second cast is an elitist attitude:? Check been said many times on this forum by people who claim there is multiply ways to play a class...
Reason 2: ''it's just a game''. I agree it is, but the mentality doesn't work anymore when you can't beat lets say content. For thoe who want to raid or do ex primals, their goal is kill the thing, not being in a sightseing and wipe in and out all day.
Reason 3: People sponsor bad play. Yes there are certainly people who does and I've seen it and others seen it. When they get called out for it, giving false info to others, they stick to their ''it's just a game, I have fun why does it matter'' Well............ There are other people in the group who wants fun too or actually beat the boss, nobody want's to waste time because 1 turd decide to be greedy about it. Instead of giving false info, telling people to ''slack'' isn't a good way. What about actually helping people with their rotations, help them understand mechanics and then they can get the clear without being carried.

That's where the main issue occur... they wont bother because too many people tell them it's fine to not do so.

[Atmora]

Hardcore raiding is by definition kind of cut throat and exclusive. You want to intentionally drive people who aren't good enough away from the groups so you can actually clear the way you want to. Hardcore raiding also doesn't just mean doing savage, it's about either clearing every fight as quickly as possible, or having the fastest kill times you can muster. Just doing savage isn't "Raiding at the highest level." You can clear every piece of content in this game relatively fast on a pretty casual schedule, nothing is stopping you. This means there's a set of stepping stones you can take to becoming "Hardcore" if you want to, but until then you need to accept that you need to improve first.

[Kyt]

snip

Firstly, taking a position of authority on a topic you're debating is literally the first thing they teach you not to do in debate, so you should cool it with your little "snippy" edit, cause it makes absolutely zero sense. How many shitty super old teachers are there? Oh yeah, tons. Successful raid groups are not typically revolving doors. For over an entire year I kept 39 other members completely static in WoW vanilla with very few absences. I've also been in carebear statics that have members leave every week. Potential raiders have every opportunity to create their own groups that coincide with their own style of raiding. They also have all the opportunity in the world to search for an external group. If you are in a raid group and you don't like how it's lead you can leave. It's as simple as that.

[Verdan]

The best thing about this game is that you can take everything about raiding and just... throw it away. Imperious raid leaders? Incompetent officers? Loot drama? DKP? Who cares! You don't need it! There's only 8 of you! The fights are like a boss at a time!

If people are still, somehow, acting like amazing assholes and tearing each other apart when you can PICK WHAT BOSS YOU FIGHT and don't have to clear trash to get there... god, what's wrong with you then? What excuse to you possibly have to be acerbic?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Why do you think raid groups tend to be revolving doors? People get tired of the bullying mentality of raid groups and choose to move on. The raid community will not grow positively until positive atmospheres are reinforced. And yes, you can have mature, respectful, positive atmospheres with bleeding edge progression. I've been in them. I've lead them. Sadly, they are not common, and thus potential raiders are driven away from raiding.

To be fair, while this approach may work on average, you have to consider the group dynamic. All players and their respective attitudes are not equal. Some people not only prefer but actively improve in an openly blunt environment. What you may call "toxic," they call "honesty." As for the frequency in turn around. It's disingenuous to attribute bullying as the sole factor. Being blunt myself, many people simply lack the skills to clear Savage but don't like hearing it. This is why the term "elitism" has lost all meaning. You are more likely to be accused of said elitism for merely offering advice than for sticking your nose up at those "filthy casuals." And that petty attitude isn't reserved for the hardcore mindset either. I know someone who intentionally refuses to heal tanks wearing 270 Slaying accessories regardless of their capabilities. Why? They hate the supposed "meta" so much, they have unintentionally become just as petty as the so called elitists.

Something worth keeping in mind is players who openly insult one another may still have an overall positive atmosphere. They simply go around it a different way. To use Xeno as an example, you'll have half as many people talking about how chill and helpful he's been while others hate him. Ask his opinion about his static members though and he'll gush over all of them. Basically, it works for him and people with similar mindsets.

[Eli85]

Firstly, taking a position of authority on a topic you're debating is literally the first thing they teach you not to do in debate, so you should cool it with your little "snippy" edit, cause it makes absolutely zero sense. How many shitty super old teachers are there? Oh yeah, tons. Successful raid groups are not typically revolving doors. For over an entire year I kept 39 other members completely static in WoW vanilla with very few absences. I've also been in carebear statics that have members leave every week. Potential raiders have every opportunity to create their own groups that coincide with their own style of raiding. They also have all the opportunity in the world to search for an external group. If you are in a raid group and you don't like how it's lead you can leave. It's as simple as that.

It makes complete sense. You are debating with the way people learn with someone's whose job is to teach people. It is incredibly valid. It's like going up to a theoretical physicist (while you yourself have no formal physics training) and you deny the existence of black holes for reasons. You really wouldn't do this--and if you did, you'd only look the fool. As for as bad teachers? Sure, there's bad teachers. There's bad everything in their profession. But is it because a lack of knowledge? Probably not; they know how to teach, but are too lazy / can't be arsed to do it properly, and are thus bad. But, they still have all that formal training and knowledge.

As to your other point, I have fully acknowledged that I am not speaking to every single case. There are--what I will call toxic raid groups--that do not have attendance problems. But there are many that do, and there are enough of us complaining about this culture that it is more than just one or two bad apples.

Now what is raiding's biggest problem? Lack of participation. We already know Savage completion rates in Heavensward were really low, and I don't think anyone is expecting much to change in Stormblood. Now normal is queuable, great, that'll boost up those numbers. But if you took out normal, and raiding is simply "savage," well, there aren't enough in that community to prop it up. The math just doesn't work out. I'm not saying the lack of positive, respectful atmospheres is the sole reason for it, but I believe it is a strong, contributing reason. At the end of the day, when I'm in my leisure time, the last thing I want is to hear some blowhard yelling because he doesn't know how to teach and encourage good play. I'm not alone in this, either.

To be fair, while this approach may work on average, you have to consider the group dynamic. All players and their respective attitudes are not equal. Some people not only prefer but actively improve in an openly blunt environment. What you may call "toxic," they call "honesty." As for the frequency in turn around. It's disingenuous to attribute bullying as the sole factor. Being blunt myself, many people simply lack the skills to clear Savage but don't like hearing it. This is why the term "elitism" has lost all meaning. You are more likely to be accused of said elitism for merely offering advice than for sticking your nose up at those "filthy casuals." And that petty attitude isn't reserved for the hardcore mindset either. I know someone who intentionally refuses to heal tanks wearing 270 Slaying accessories regardless of their capabilities. Why? They hate the supposed "meta" so much, they have unintentionally become just as petty as the so called elitists.

Something worth keeping in mind is players who openly insult one another may still have an overall positive atmosphere. They simply go around it a different way. To use Xeno as an example, you'll have half as many people talking about how chill and helpful he's been while others hate him. Ask his opinion about his static members though and he'll gush over all of them. Basically, it works for him and people with similar mindsets.

First, there is nothing wrong with being blunt. I can be very blunt myself. It's all the way you go about it. You can respectfully ask, "Why did you not soak at blah blah?" Blunt, straight to the point, and the player will feel very comfortable asking. Versus, "Who is the idiot who keeps missing the soak and wasting people's time?" Even without tone, you can easily tell this creates a very uncomfortable environment that is not conducive to learning and encouraging good play.

I completely disagree with insults can create a positive atmosphere. The second you throw out an insult--whether it is in jest or not--you instantly create an uncomfortable and hostile environment. There is absolutely no reason to be insulting to another player. If you can't say it in a warm, respectful way, don't queue up the mic.

As a general note: these are my personal feelings as to why I don't raid competitively anymore. It's not a broad indictment on raiding as a whole, but it's also why I believe raiding participation numbers are down. I simply believe that many players do not want to be in aggressive, hostile environments that unfortunately run rampant in Savage. Sure, you can find groups that aren't like that, but experience tells me there are many like that.

[Kyt]

snip

If a raid leader is actually saying something like "who is the idiot who keeps missing the soak", that raid leader needs to be stripped of whatever officer position he has because it is INCREDIBLY easy to tell exactly who is fucking up what. That's a BAD raid leader, not a high level toxic raid leader. It is NOT bad for me to say "hey xxx, you screwed up moving out of the puddles 3 times in a row now and killed other people each time as a result, you really need to pick it up or I will be replacing you in the next few attempts". It's also NOT bad for a group of 8 close friends to say things like "god you're such a fucking retard xxx" which is exactly what Xeno and his group do. If you join a group like that and you're the odd man out who didn't realize that that's how the group is run, that's definitely on you and not them.