The Raid community as we know it

[Eli85]

Firstly, taking a position of authority on a topic you're debating is literally the first thing they teach you not to do in debate, so you should cool it with your little "snippy" edit, cause it makes absolutely zero sense. How many shitty super old teachers are there? Oh yeah, tons. Successful raid groups are not typically revolving doors. For over an entire year I kept 39 other members completely static in WoW vanilla with very few absences. I've also been in carebear statics that have members leave every week. Potential raiders have every opportunity to create their own groups that coincide with their own style of raiding. They also have all the opportunity in the world to search for an external group. If you are in a raid group and you don't like how it's lead you can leave. It's as simple as that.

It makes complete sense. You are debating with the way people learn with someone's whose job is to teach people. It is incredibly valid. It's like going up to a theoretical physicist (while you yourself have no formal physics training) and you deny the existence of black holes for reasons. You really wouldn't do this--and if you did, you'd only look the fool. As for as bad teachers? Sure, there's bad teachers. There's bad everything in their profession. But is it because a lack of knowledge? Probably not; they know how to teach, but are too lazy / can't be arsed to do it properly, and are thus bad. But, they still have all that formal training and knowledge.

As to your other point, I have fully acknowledged that I am not speaking to every single case. There are--what I will call toxic raid groups--that do not have attendance problems. But there are many that do, and there are enough of us complaining about this culture that it is more than just one or two bad apples.

Now what is raiding's biggest problem? Lack of participation. We already know Savage completion rates in Heavensward were really low, and I don't think anyone is expecting much to change in Stormblood. Now normal is queuable, great, that'll boost up those numbers. But if you took out normal, and raiding is simply "savage," well, there aren't enough in that community to prop it up. The math just doesn't work out. I'm not saying the lack of positive, respectful atmospheres is the sole reason for it, but I believe it is a strong, contributing reason. At the end of the day, when I'm in my leisure time, the last thing I want is to hear some blowhard yelling because he doesn't know how to teach and encourage good play. I'm not alone in this, either.

To be fair, while this approach may work on average, you have to consider the group dynamic. All players and their respective attitudes are not equal. Some people not only prefer but actively improve in an openly blunt environment. What you may call "toxic," they call "honesty." As for the frequency in turn around. It's disingenuous to attribute bullying as the sole factor. Being blunt myself, many people simply lack the skills to clear Savage but don't like hearing it. This is why the term "elitism" has lost all meaning. You are more likely to be accused of said elitism for merely offering advice than for sticking your nose up at those "filthy casuals." And that petty attitude isn't reserved for the hardcore mindset either. I know someone who intentionally refuses to heal tanks wearing 270 Slaying accessories regardless of their capabilities. Why? They hate the supposed "meta" so much, they have unintentionally become just as petty as the so called elitists.

Something worth keeping in mind is players who openly insult one another may still have an overall positive atmosphere. They simply go around it a different way. To use Xeno as an example, you'll have half as many people talking about how chill and helpful he's been while others hate him. Ask his opinion about his static members though and he'll gush over all of them. Basically, it works for him and people with similar mindsets.

First, there is nothing wrong with being blunt. I can be very blunt myself. It's all the way you go about it. You can respectfully ask, "Why did you not soak at blah blah?" Blunt, straight to the point, and the player will feel very comfortable asking. Versus, "Who is the idiot who keeps missing the soak and wasting people's time?" Even without tone, you can easily tell this creates a very uncomfortable environment that is not conducive to learning and encouraging good play.

I completely disagree with insults can create a positive atmosphere. The second you throw out an insult--whether it is in jest or not--you instantly create an uncomfortable and hostile environment. There is absolutely no reason to be insulting to another player. If you can't say it in a warm, respectful way, don't queue up the mic.

As a general note: these are my personal feelings as to why I don't raid competitively anymore. It's not a broad indictment on raiding as a whole, but it's also why I believe raiding participation numbers are down. I simply believe that many players do not want to be in aggressive, hostile environments that unfortunately run rampant in Savage. Sure, you can find groups that aren't like that, but experience tells me there are many like that.

[Kyt]

snip

If a raid leader is actually saying something like "who is the idiot who keeps missing the soak", that raid leader needs to be stripped of whatever officer position he has because it is INCREDIBLY easy to tell exactly who is fucking up what. That's a BAD raid leader, not a high level toxic raid leader. It is NOT bad for me to say "hey xxx, you screwed up moving out of the puddles 3 times in a row now and killed other people each time as a result, you really need to pick it up or I will be replacing you in the next few attempts". It's also NOT bad for a group of 8 close friends to say things like "god you're such a fucking retard xxx" which is exactly what Xeno and his group do. If you join a group like that and you're the odd man out who didn't realize that that's how the group is run, that's definitely on you and not them.

[Eli85]

If a raid leader is actually saying something like "who is the idiot who keeps missing the soak", that raid leader needs to be stripped of whatever officer position he has because it is INCREDIBLY easy to tell exactly who is fucking up what. That's a BAD raid leader, not a high level toxic raid leader. It is NOT bad for me to say "hey xxx, you screwed up moving out of the puddles 3 times in a row now and killed other people each time as a result, you really need to pick it up or I will be replacing you in the next few attempts". It's also NOT bad for a group of 8 close friends to say things like "god you're such a fucking retard xxx" which is exactly what Xeno and his group do. If you join a group like that and you're the odd man out who didn't realize thatR that's how the group is run, that's definitely on you and not them.

Re: the soak. Pay less attention to the 'dur the raid leader is dumb' and take more into account the tone, the language, the broad stroking that the comment implies. Change it to, if you want, to "X why is it so hard for you to do a simple mechanic like soak?!" Still aggressive, hostile, and in my opinion, unacceptable.

There is nothing wrong with what I've bolded, provided it is delivered in a mature, respectful tone. However, your last quote, that is completely unacceptable in any situation, and is, in my opinion, why a lot of players who are more than capable of raiding, choose not to. The reality is, far more groups engage in that unacceptable behaviour. I mean, would you really call someone a bleeping bleep in a public space? On a bus? In a coffee shop? And not have people turn around wondering what is wrong with you? If someone ever says that to me in real life, I bid them adieu. There is no place in our society for those kinds of comments.

[Kyt]

snip

If that's how people talk to each other, then that's how they talk to each other. It's not your right to dictate how people talk to each other. Some people actually just talk like that. My last quote is not unacceptable in a static where that is the preferred type of communication, and I'll stop you now before you say "that type of communication is not preferred by anyone in the world", because it quite obviously is. Me? no, I don't lead my raids like that. But it obviously works for people who are like that example being xeno and his group who are all close friends. It's not your right to tell them that how they do things is wrong.

[Eli85]

If that's how people talk to each other, then that's how they talk to each other. It's not your right to dictate how people talk to each other. Some people actually just talk like that. My last quote is not unacceptable in a static where that is the preferred type of communication, and I'll stop you now before you say "that type of communication is not preferred by anyone in the world", because it quite obviously is. Me? no, I don't lead my raids like that. But it obviously works for people who are like that example being xeno and his group who are all close friends. It's not your right to tell them that how they do things is wrong.

Rules of polite, civilized society demands that it is unacceptable. Though when people log on a game, get that veil of anonymity, they start to behave poorly. Some people dig that, fine, that's them--but the rest of us, it makes us uncomfortable, and drives us away from otherwise enjoyable content. I miss high level raiding, I really do, but the toxic environment, the hostility, the aggression, those aren't worth it to me, and I really don't think I'm the only one.

Raiding thrives on participation. Raiding will die out when participation levels drop too much. So why the raiding community is OK with ostracizing potential players is really baffling.