Boycotting Warrior 4.0 (Let's do it!)

[Reynhart]

but the thing is nobody wants to tank , so why on earth would you force tanks into a play style that they arent asking for , leave tanks alone and let people who are willing to tank play them the way they want I dont get SE sometimes

First, wrong, some people like to tank and second, by not forcing tanks into a single play style, the meta is...forcing tanks into a single play style.

Since we have three jobs, we could cover three different style of players.

[Venjenz]

but the thing is nobody wants to tank , so why on earth would you force tanks into a play style that they arent asking for , leave tanks alone and let people who are willing to tank play them the way they want I dont get SE sometimes

Not true. Plenty of people want to tank. 15-20% of the player base plays tanks.

Tanking is (1) having the highest Effective Hit Point (EHP) pool, (2) keeping as much of the incoming damage as the mechanics will allow aimed at that highest EHP pool, (3) smoothing out incoming damage as much as possible to make encounters both survivable and predictable. That's THE ROLE.

Now there are plenty of ways to manage how each tank job approaches those core mechanics of the MMO tank role, but in the end, you are there to keep a predictable and reliable max EHP pool between the bad guys and the rest of the party. PLD can be shieldy-blocky EHP, WAR can be berzerker "my rage lets me shrug off your feeble dmg" style EHP, and DRK can be "I feast on your soul to strengthen myself" EHP. However they do it, the end result remains the same - put your EHP between bad guys and your party, and keep it there.

That is the tank core playstyle, and everything is window dressing on how that gets accomplished. Look at any other MMO's tank classes, and theorycraft out an optimal 30-120 second sustained threat generation + incoming dmg mitigation throughput, then change raid bosses, trash, AE, etc and average it all out, and you'll end up seeing how tanking is remarkably the same across different games and each game's tanks. Same thing here, ideally.

[aqskerorokero]

People can't distinguish what is a tank and what is a blue icon dps......

[bswpayton]

Not true.

But look at all these threads nobody wants a damage nerf, whats the complaint on this thread warrior cant stance dance like they use to thats a playstyle people enjoy. Another thread about drk blood price locked behind grit, like these are not changes people want nor where asking for so why SE thinks people will keep playing tanks they could be losing them.

That 20 percent could very well be people whom level tanks doesnt mean they main them, doesnt mean they will take them into serious content, I know a ton of tanks who want even tank anything outside of potd. So that number is def flawed, by focusing more on tanking only this will lose some tanks where I dont really believe we have room to lose anymore tanks. Many tanks like options only tanking in tank stance limits those options and may make some players not even bother anymore. They need to quit while they are ahead before they run the already small number away from the jobs completely.

[Reynhart]

But look at all these threads nobody wants a damage nerf

Each thread only contains the PoV of a vocal minority.

But even with only a small fraction of the playerbase, you know that not everybody want to tank agressively. Just look at any of the past STR vs VIT tank or, stance dancing vs turtling.

Many tanks like options only tanking in tank stance limits those options and may make some players not even bother anymore.

Yes, we like options, but it's sad that the only option they put in the game is "stance dancing".

[bswpayton]

Each thread only contains the PoV of a vocal minority.

But even with only a small fraction of the playerbase, you know that not everybody want to tank agressively. Just look at any of the past STR vs VIT tank or, stance dancing vs turtling.

Yes, we like options, but it's sad that the only option they put in the game is "stance dancing".

stance dancing is not a requirement, and if you are in a static then you should be vocal about how you want to. In a pf group u are free to tank as u please , so I dont understand , where you have to stance dance is coming from. That being said, most if not all good tanks stance dance, but again it doesnt make you a bad tank if you prefer to be in tank stance only. Meta only matters for those whom want to follow the meta its not a requirement.

[Venjenz]

Each thread only contains the PoV of a vocal minority.

And I truly believe a good number of that minority want to play DPS, but don't like the long queue times involved with that choice.

Yes, we like options, but it's sad that the only option they put in the game is "stance dancing".

Stance dancing gets around not having specializations or talent tree paths for each job. Instead of having a DPS spec and a tank spec separate (WoW, Rift, SWTOR), it's a tank who can be more or less tanky with a button press. But since FF 14 allows one player to have every job with just a gear swap, it makes sense why the three tanks are more tanky and the DPS jobs are more DPS-y.

What they should have for the tanks and heals is different ways to approach doing a fundamentally similar thing. Tanks are there to be a big EHP pool that holds attention and survives big bursts. Armor class, dodge, block, self-heals, total HP volume, etc...lots of ways to create Effective HP. So the devs could clearly be more creative to give each tank job a bit more unique flavor.

But as far as DPS goes, that's not really part of the EHP formula, and falls more to the "holding aggro" part of the job, which tank stance provides with "bonus to enmity" baked in to the lowering of outgoing DPS. I honestly see Deliverance/Sword Oath/Grit_on_off as soloing buttons like Cleric Stance, just to relieve some of the boredom of tank and healer soloing.

[Reynhart]

stance dancing is not a requirement

Well, it technically isn't but there is not situation when it's optimal to not stance dance. Because that's how the game is designed right now.
Enmity is too easy to keep, healers are too powerful so they can easily compensate the damage taken in DPS stance, etc...

So the devs could clearly be more creative to give each tank job a bit more unique flavor.

Since it would be more difficult to balance, they chose to throw away any tactictal choice of chosing any of the three tanks or healers. In fact, if fights were less scripted, it might make a deeper impact on how manage them. Monsters should react and change part of their behavior depending of what the party does, or include some random elements in their "rotation".

I honestly see Deliverance/Sword Oath/Grit_on_off as soloing buttons like Cleric Stance, just to relieve some of the boredom of tank and healer soloing.

They totally are.

[aleph_null]

I've discussed this with many people, I think given the performance gap between good players and average players in this game it's impossible to design encounters that require high tank stance and healing uptime without making them too hard for most people. The amount of attention to details that the top groups put is just out of reach for most of the playerbase. If even the best tanks who can perfectly time and manage their cooldowns and coordinate with their equally skilled healers have to stay in tank stance most of the time, with the healers actively healing most of the time, then most of us average raiders won't even have a chance to clear the raid. It's just not realistic. Most of the DF/RF/PF groups that clear a12s aren't even close to the top groups' level of (lack of) tank stance and healing uptime.

Those tanks in the deletemonk/angered/elysium groups mitigate way better than your average tanks in grit 24/7, and require less heals. What takes their healers 5 casts of healing spells probably takes average healers 10. What takes their tanks 0% grit/defiance uptime probably takes more than 70% on average tanks. Average players compensate for their lack of skills and coordination by having higher tank stance uptime and more heals. If you make contents "challenging" enough to make those great players need like even 50% tank stance or healing uptime, then the clear rates will plummet. We'll get another gordias tier, except it's not about dps checks but tank/heal checks. Let's step back a moment and look at midas savage. How much of our playerbase actually cleared a8s pre echo? How much of us (who even managed to get there) struggled with mitigation and healing in the second (adds) phase and the last part before J storm of that fight? If you want something more challenging than creator savage for tanks/healers go ahead and do a8s min ilv sync.

Let me ask, among those who think that tanking in full dps stance is trivial, how many of you have actually cleared a12s with both tanks out of tank stance throughout the whole fight?

[Reynhart]

I've discussed this with many people, I think given the performance gap between good players and average players in this game it's impossible to design encounters that require high tank stance and healing uptime without making them too hard for most people.

It's far from impossible. They designed PotD to be tackled as a 4-man team, yet some people are doing it solo. It's also not unheard of teams doing dungeons and raids with the less number of teammates when one disconnect, too. So, a skilled team might reduce their number of healers or tank because they master their job and the fight.

Let me ask, among those who think that tanking in full dps stance is trivial, how many of you have actually cleared a12s with both tanks out of tank stance throughout the whole fight?

What's important is not how many people managed to do it, but that stance-dancing is necessary for optimal result. It's not a gameplay choice. If you can't do it, then it means you lack something.