Coils of Bahamut... and its inconsistent challenge level.

[Vidu]

Ill start with a reply to the last paragraph because clearly you are mistaken I myself play this game for challenge, the difference is unsync should not be a challenge the feature is and should equal face roll in any form of content. Even after we spoke in last thread I made a learning party and cleared nidhog as well thus leaving me with zurvan to be the only hw primal I havent finished yet I plan to try to finish the last three legs of alex savage as well or attempt.


I do not like only running dungeons or doing easy content like diadum, Im here to challenge myself I dont know where you get the impression that I dont like challenge this is what I love most about the game. The thing about it is the people make things unbearable sometimes, there is no middle ground for a midcore player such as myself either your friends are to casual and dont wana do anything outside of exp roulette and 24 mans. Then your other friends are perfectionist and will start talkin trash as soon as you fail one mechanic. Thus Ive found it best to clear content just like everyone else and just get my scrip gear and be done with it, I know how to play the game, but I am still learning and I can tell how much ive improved over when I first started. Ive never played group up games before this every game I played before this was solo content so I was allowed to learn on my own pace on here not so much. But my point is I strive to beat challenges and to have challenge in the game I would to just like you get very bored if dungeons where the only thing in this game.

But again all unsync content should be the same , gaurda extreme is face roll unsync, ifrit faceroll, ramuh faceroll, thormarch face roll, you can solo any level 50 dungeon for the most party they are all faceroll when you do them unsync at least as tank or heals ( refering to dungeons on the solo part I know that extremes are a different case solo). So this helps people get all their horse mounts ect so then why make coil any different nerf it down to where people can get these rewards just as easy as anything else unsync. Unsync means easy I dont care how you look at it I promise you some people I know would never even clear some of the arr primals sync without gettin frustrated and giving up.

So I know that its people out there that would miss this story in coil because its not what they are use to gettin from unsync content, unsync does in most cases and should mean automatic clear. Aint nobody disbanding on any unsync groups, and the statement about crafters just isnt true alot of the ones I know love the story and what is coil the story. I want to do coil myself but Im just not gona do content that the only realistic option to do it is unsyncing, and nobody is gona run it sync with me, I hate the whole feature period as Ive stated many times on the forums. But its a means to an end and it works so I use it and others do to and they use it with the expectation of automatic clear for little effort. You cant have the same expectations for unsync content as you do sync this tool was made to make things easy so why complain when people are in unsync mood that they want it easy.

There is a reason why people will with open arms do anything with players even people they know are unskilled unsync , but wouldnt dare do the same content with them sync. Nobody wants easy mood at least I dont but when Im unsyncing content I expect and get the equivalent of doing a guildhiest with larger mechanics that can mostly be ignored and thats what people want with coil for it to be like basically like everything else you run unsync an easy clear. And also to add youtube doesn't put your character in those cut scenes so its def not anywhere close to being the same thing if you have attachment to your characters journey in the game

I'm having several issues with this post:

1) You're advoacting for a group of people that you assume exists - the group of people who want to see coil, but not actually do it.
2) Following from that: You dont even know if you're doing new people a favour by removing the challenge from the game - you yourself seem to have gotten to a point where you like a challenge now! So how much would that suck for a new person to play through the game, learn their class and then, when they're ready for a challenge, get told "Oh, yeah, we removed half of them already, so you dont have to bother with them - isnt that nice?"
3) Not all unsych content should be the same - pretty much like not all dungeons should be the same.
(Even those primals you've mentioned require you to pay a certain amount of attention: Ramuh and Ifrit shouldnt be pushed to far. Levi will wipe you if you dont use the generator, so even unsyched the main mechanic there is still intact. Shiva can still kill you with her bow if you slide into the wall and become a popsickle...)
4) Unsych =/= faceroll easy. Even unsyched this content can still be a challenge - it always is when you go in with a minimum amount of people or alone.
5) Have you put even the slighted bit of thought into how this would work?
Because answer me this question: Present a solution on how coil can stay challenging content when done synched but gets faceroll easy when done unsyched without the devs spending to much time on it.
The only solution I can come up with is literally: Make a "Coil-story-mode-for-really-really-dumb-people" that has striking dummies instead of the bosses in each arena.

If people have a wrong idea of what unsyched means, maybe its time to fix that idea - not to have the content obey their weird and wrong expectations of what it should be.

Your proposal is patroninsing towards new people, only favours those that dont want to put effort into anything, lacks an understanding of the idea behind "unsyching" content and would require the devs to spend time on outdated content, that is yet still very much playable, if you're willing to put a minimum of time and effort into it.

You are pretending to do new people a favour with this, to be concerned about them - and yet what you're doing and saying is the worst possible for them. You're basically saying "They shouldnt have to put any effort into this game at all if they dont want to!" - this attitude is what brings us dragoons without heavy thrust, non-dps-healers, tanks who dont use cooldowns, bards not using their dots... the list goes on and on and on. Why are we having all of those people who cant even move out of a single AoE in level 60 content? Why are we wiping in Dun Scaith? Because of this attitude - that people, who dont want to put effort into the game and dont want to improve should still be able to enjoy and play as much as someone who isnt watching netflix and the second screen.
You are not helping them by taking away every chance of the game giving them the message "hey, here is something you need to pay attention too!" - you're turning them into spoiled, little brats who cant do anything by themself because they've never learned how to do it and who will eventually get stuck along the way and meet people who are having realsitic expectations of them that they're no where close to meet because they just wiggled through the whole game without ever being faced with a challenge.

...as for the "part of your characters journey" as a counter-argument for YouTube - the fights are a part of that journey. If you dont do them properly - at least to the extend of handeling basic mechanics - and want to turn them into mere striking dummies, your character isnt going onto the journey that coil is.

[bswpayton]

I'm having several issues with this post:

1) You're advoacting for a group of people that you assume exists - the group of people who want to see coil, but not actually do it.

I assume have you not looked at party finder people even run dungeons unsync for their anima when they can do these same level 50 dungeons sync in less than 20 mins. You know why because they dont want any obstacles at that point they want to get in and out to be done with it. People have pony farms up unsnyc always because they want to put as little and as minimal effort in team farming their birds. When people run things unsync thats what its ran for the least resistance the easiest method available is it not? I know for certain people aren't gona be doin any sync bird farms in stormblood.

So lets be honest about this feature people use it because its easy no other reason for using it other wise, yes the person they mention above has a good idea with the teaching method but thats very very rare. Most people even in nn a new player will be like hey I have to do titan hm , the mentor will say do you want a speed kill and they do it unsync. Its very rare that someones gona be like lets get a party together and do this sync, Ive done that but again Im just one person just like the person above. The community has spoken and its clear you see it in pf everyday if its old content and we dont have to do it we want the easiest way to do it possible. And that way is unsync and it will continue to always be the first choice if its available. I mean yea Ive been in some unsync parties where we killed ifrit to fast , or same thing with ramuh but its not the same thing by any means as it is sync. You are so overpowered that you are just taking chunks of health out of them that even if you wipe it will take you all of two mins to get back to the same point you were at where running it sync it would take alot longer to get to that same point. I ignore tones of mechanics in these same two fights Im not worried about breaking someone out of charmed ignored, on ifrit Im not worried about that chain attached to me ignored. I really dont even have to worry about the large wide room aoe or even look for the safespot all of those things can be ignored, and what people are asking for is the ability to ignore mechanics in coil to just because its coil doesn't mean that the option still shouldn't be there again unsync should be the least bit of resistance period if you want the challenge do it sync.

@Istaru
I wouldnt be one of those mentors that left an extreme trail id stay til the end ive stayed with new players wiping on ultima I wouldnt leave but I wouldnt have any high expectations either. I dont do mentor roulette currently havent even finished the story yet cause I have access to the raids and trails so Ill prob do them right before stormblood so I may not get around to mentor roullete. But if I do I would do my best to do these fights Ive cleared them all sync but titan and thormarch so I have a good idea of how they go , Im not gona lie titan is just not something I like but id even stay for that, hes harder to me than some of the alex stuff ive seen cant stand that instance.

[Vidu]

I assume have you not looked at party finder people even run dungeons unsync for their anima when they can do these same level 50 dungeons sync in less than 20 mins. You know why because they dont want any obstacles at that point they want to get in and out to be done with it. People have pony farms up unsnyc always because they want to put as little and as minimal effort in team farming their birds. When people run things unsync thats what its ran for the least resistance the easiest method available is it not? I know for certain people aren't gona be doin any sync bird farms in stormblood.

Well yes, ofc they're going the easiest way possible - but why must the easiest way possible be a striking dummy in an arena?

The main reasons people are doing birdfarms and animagrinds synched is that they're that: Farms and Grinds - both arent excatly difficult, they're just time consuming. I am currently doing my ARR-scholar-relic and I'm at the Zeta-light state; one Mahatma is filled with one TamTara-run, which takes me about 3 minutes atm. Doing this syched wont add to the difficutly of the content at all, it would only add to the time spend.
I still have to put effort into getting my relic though - even if its really old and outdated content. (Oh, you're saying that... I'm doing this for... glamour? Guess what: thats what we've been telling you about in coil the whole time!)

Coil-mechanics unsyched are on a level with dungeon-mechanics, really. If someones going in first time, the only problem is that they're new and dont know how to handle the mechanics yet. The same happens with any other content in the game. Do you have a problem with people wiping at any given boss in an expert dungeon because they dont handle the mechanics? Dont tell me you wont wipe if you completly ignore mechanics and dont tell me that thats just not something that happens.
(Infact: Think about Nidhogg in the Aery - if the healer gets trapped and the dps&tank ignore the mechanic and doesnt free them, its a wipe there. Just the best example that came to my mind right now - even dungeons require you to do mechanics)
We're not asking for people to clear this at minimum ilvl. We're saying that we like the option to do that - and that anyone who doesnt want to, can take the already really, really easy route of unsyching it.
In a sense unsyched Coil can be excatly the content for midcore people you'd like to see: Its a little more challenging than a dungeon, by being a little less forgiving. Its content that you can and should do with a couple of friends; the system even allows you to pick any from 2-7 friends to do this content with, adjusting the level of challenge as you go. It still has nice rewards and great fights. It does not need to be nerfed for the sake of people who cant be bothered to put the slightest amount of effort into it.

Maybe its because of my upbringing but I despite the idea of being rewarded just for attending...

Farming content is a slightly different thing, because the goal here isnt to just clear it but to clear it as fast and often as possible, to have a higher chance of getting your pony.

[Dualgunner]

You know why because they dont want any obstacles at that point they want to get in and out to be done with it. People have pony farms up unsnyc always because they want to put as little and as minimal effort in team farming their birds. When people run things unsync thats what its ran for the least resistance the easiest method available is it not? I know for certain people aren't gona be doin any sync bird farms in stormblood.

What's the argument here? Unsynch *is* the path of least resistance in Coil, unless you're saying somehow unsynching makes Coil harder? I don't recall any mechanics adversely affected by outrageous dps like in Ramuh Ex and Leviathan Ex, the latter of which actually *is* easier to fight synched than unsynched intriguingly enough.

So lets be honest about this feature people use it because its easy no other reason for using it other wise

O teach me Payton Senpai, you clearly know the major use for every major function in the game better than the rest of the playerbase combined.

yes the person they mention above has a good idea with the teaching method but thats very very rare. Most people even in nn a new player will be like hey I have to do titan hm , the mentor will say do you want a speed kill and they do it unsync.

Well that's pretty shitty of the novice network then. I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just saying that's a pretty shitty outlook for the nn.

The community has spoken and its clear you see it in pf everyday if its old content and we dont have to do it we want the easiest way to do it possible.

So if people prefer to do things unsynched, that content in specific is dead? They'll *still* want to do it unsynched even if either of the OP's suggestions are implemented.

And that way is unsync and it will continue to always be the first choice if its available.

I'm not sure of your point atm. You waffle about a lot and it is annoying to try and sift through.

I mean yea Ive been in some unsync parties where we killed ifrit to fast , or same thing with ramuh but its not the same thing by any means as it is sync.

Ah yes! Ifrit thank you, that was another one.

And you're right, unsynch does make the fights entirely different. You're struggling with a very different side of the mechanics than before. But not every fight can be like that (and god help me if they were, holding deeps is painful.)

You are so overpowered that you are just taking chunks of health out of them that even if you wipe it will take you all of two mins to get back to the same point you were at where running it sync it would take alot longer to get to that same point.

The sky is blue, water is wet...

I ignore tones of mechanics

Sig material. Too bad Defias' quote is so much more fun.

in these same two fights Im not worried about breaking someone out of charmed ignored, on ifrit Im not worried about that chain attached to me ignored. I really dont even have to worry about the large wide room aoe or even look for the safespot all of those things can be ignored, and what people are asking for is the ability to ignore mechanics in coil to just because its coil doesn't mean that the option still shouldn't be there again unsync should be the least bit of resistance period if you want the challenge do it sync.

And finally we get to your goddamn point.

Coil Mechanics Unsynch lets me ignore:
Everything T1
Everything T2
T3 don't count but yeah ignore it too
Everything T4
T5: Can ignore neurolinks, kill Asclepius dead before second divebombs even come close to happening, Twin dies before Dreadknight and Twisters.
T6: Everything
Everything in T7. You *can* still pull through petrifying everyone. Though granted, easier to just follow mechanics.
T8: Bumrushed with pure deeps before
T9: Not a lot actually, though skipping Nael to 64%HP before two meteors drop helps a bit. Also burning her add down quickly, and then murdering her before Fire In/Fire Out really starts to be a thing.
T10: You can basically just burn the hell out of this.
T11: Can't skip a lot I can think of here, mostly because it's a more technically minded raid, but burning things down quick helps a lot.
T12: Can literally bumrush this
T13: Can literally bumrush this

Around T13 the average DPS's dps was maybe between 500 and 600 iirc (x4 and not counting tank/healer dps cuz I'm lazy) is between 2000 and 2400.

Nowadays average dps is 2000 on the low end. x 4 is about 8000, around 4x t13 synch dps in the day. There is not a single class that can enter coil at Lv60 i250 that has less hp than even a warrior back in the day, thanks to echo buffs as well.

"If you want challenge do it synch" Fair enough, but there is no challenge to a lot of Coil unsynch anyway. Nerfing it more is pointless because there will always be someone who can't do it. And they'll ask for nerfs. And more nerfs. And more. Until Coil is *nothing* but cinematics. Slippery slope, for sure, but there will never come a day people don't ask for nerfs because they can't do what's already faceroll easy, and you seem to always be on the side of the people who can't and refuse to try.

@Istaru

Not for me, stopped reading here.