Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[Talraen]

Sounds like a personal problem. Vets aren't here to teach newbies, we are here to have fun just like they are. We have zero obligation to assist anyone yet sometimes we still do out of the kindness of our hearts. They should be grateful for what they get. If you are concerned about people using it to filter newbies out of MSQ content simply don't allow the "No Bonus" option to be selected for things like MSQ dungeons and Roulettes.

That's all fine from your perspective, but it's ignoring why these mechanics exist. Square Enix is trying to keep the game healthy. Having players who flatly refuse to help new players is extremely unhealthy for a game like this. That's why there are so many mechanics designed to incentivize helping players.

Which isn't to say you're necessarily wrong regarding the raid finder. But your attitude is literally useless to Square Enix, and they're not going to cater to it because it doesn't help grow the game at all. If you want to convince them to give you what they want, you need to provide a reason for them to do so. Selfishness is not a good way to convince people to help you.

[HyoMinPark]

Having players who flatly refuse to help new players is extremely unhealthy for a game like this. That's why there are so many mechanics designed to incentivize helping players.

Unfortunately, those kinds of people will never go away, regardless of what is done to the Raid Finder or Ex primals, or what SE does to the game. Can't please everybody. :/

Selfishness is not a good way to convince people to help you.

This comment applies to the people here demanding everyone needs to cater to them because they're new as well. Except now it's them being selfish, and not the vets that just want to farm some days.

It's not selfish of vets to want the option to filter bonuses out of their premades. It's also not selfish that new people ask for veterans with experience to help them, and pass that experience along. What's selfish is when one group (and this goes for BOTH) demands that the other needs to do what the want because they're "more important."

[Vidu]

Because you guys are talkin like this is a majority of the playerbase and its not

If its not a majority of people who'd use the option in the first place, what harm is done?


It may not take away our chance not to have the cleared-option in RF, but its making farming less convenient and more annyoing.
Having the cleared-option in the DF isnt taking away the chance of people who want to learn the fight either - stop making it sound as if there is one newbie and 99 vety queueing and if they're all gone, newbie is all alone and cant learn the fight (unless they go into PF and make a learning party for it)

We are not asking to remove the "I havent cleared it yet"-queue - we're asking for a second queue option, being "I have cleared this". And if people want to spend their freetime in a game farming instead of teaching/helping/carrying new people they should have every damn right and the means to do so!
You really need to stop thinking that newbie-clears and their wish to do this content snyched are more important than "vet"-people who would like their bird now.
I might want to spend those last two months before SB farming for my birds because there is nothing else to do and I would unsub without that. (This doesnt apply to me anymore, because I got my birds now - but I still see enough farm-parties, so telling those people "hey, just wait 2 months and go and help new people now because their kills are really more important" is a horrible attitude)
You keep saying that you want to get those kills the proper way - guess what: I wanted to get my birds the proper way. Which is why I had to farm them now - it might be more difficult to get a syched-learning-party once unsched is an option, but its going to be impossible to farm this content syched once unsyched is an option. So your argument only works when you consider the new person more important than anyone else...

Lets go back to the swimming pool and the two lanes that are for people who want to serious exersice while the rest of the pool is for everyone who wants to just fool around and paddle a bit - those people who want to seriously exersice arent being mean monsters, even if they keep focused on their goal of swimming lanes when the playful people need one more person for water-volleyball and our swimmer chooses to stay focused on their goal and not join them.

That's all fine from your perspective, but it's ignoring why these mechanics exist. Square Enix is trying to keep the game healthy. Having players who flatly refuse to help new players is extremely unhealthy for a game like this. That's why there are so many mechanics designed to incentivize helping players.

Which isn't to say you're necessarily wrong regarding the raid finder. But your attitude is literally useless to Square Enix, and they're not going to cater to it because it doesn't help grow the game at all. If you want to convince them to give you what they want, you need to provide a reason for them to do so. Selfishness is not a good way to convince people to help you.

How is forcing people to help anymore helpful and healthy? How is saying "Hey, you can go and play football, but only if you take your little brother with you" helpful?

Dont get me wrong, I understand and know why those mechanics are in place - but you cant make people help other people. By not giving them a choice its basically telling them "Hey, your intrests are worth less to us than those of the person who just joined the game three weeks ago" - and how is that a good attitude?

And its not even helpful for new people - not every person who'd like to farm has the patience or the skill to teach new people. They'll get upset, toxic, leave immidiatly or after one wipe... giving those people the option to stay out of learning groups is helpful for both sides. Because then only people who are fine with a slower pace will queue up for not-cleared.

[DaikiKiyoshi]

That's all fine from your perspective, but it's ignoring why these mechanics exist. Square Enix is trying to keep the game healthy. Having players who flatly refuse to help new players is extremely unhealthy for a game like this. That's why there are so many mechanics designed to incentivize helping players.

Which isn't to say you're necessarily wrong regarding the raid finder. But your attitude is literally useless to Square Enix, and they're not going to cater to it because it doesn't help grow the game at all. If you want to convince them to give you what they want, you need to provide a reason for them to do so. Selfishness is not a good way to convince people to help you.

My attitude is that of someone who is annoyed with entitled people who think there is nothing wrong with forcing vets to teach them. I'm way more likely to take time out of my day to help newbies with ex trials if said newbies have not been ruining my own progress by sneaking into my farm parties (which happens way more often then you think). If SE wants veteran players to help newbies the so called incentives they provide us now are not enough. I can't speak for everyone but when I'm trying to farm Soph Ex for weapons, that 50 (or whatever amount) of bonus tomestones (that I don't even get in the end lmao) in no way compensates me for my 90 minutes spent wiping and never clearing the content. SE needs to throw us a bone here, like the ability to filter newbies out of content as they did with RF. It might not make sense to you but if we can get our runs in without newbies ruining it for us we are a lot happier and more likely to help them out after we get our stuff done. It may sound harsh but it's tough love that benefits everyone in the end.

[Vaer]

Don't really care if it ends up in DF or RF.

However, if someone is making a PF that is a farm party that says no bonus, there should be a way to tell who snuck in with bonus if it happens instead of trying to guess who has the bonus. Same thing should happen if someone joins and doesn't meet other entry requirements (such as it not being unlocked). If people keep saying just use PF, PF should provide the tools required to enforce whatever restrictions the party leader wants.

[HyoMinPark]

If people keep saying just use PF, PF should provide the tools required to enforce whatever restrictions the party leader wants.

I like the idea of adding it to PF. It would make sense, because PF already lets us filter based on minimum ilvl all the way to what party comp the leader wants for their group. Adding in this filter would be extremely beneficial. Wouldn't solve the Duty Complete PUGs but it could still help with the issue of people sneaking into farms for their clear. Which is far more prevalent than some think.

[Dzian]

Let me ask you this then would you say to put the Arr primals in the rf as well then. I dont think youd advocate for that so why with the same fate coming swiftly to these primals should we keep them in the rf when in two months people could care less. Its not necessary , so we should appease farmers for two more months just to make them happy when they couldnt care less once the expansion hits. That's pretty much what everyone is arguing here a small two month window when it has been a certain way for the rf whole existence but you guys cant handle a mere two months.

If titan ex was in the raid finder it really wouldn't matter at all.

Let me ask you this. How many people queue titan ex or coil t13 in the duty finder?

Without touching party finder because it seems people don't want to ya know create a learning party and just expect duty finder success.

Go and queue them. Tell me how long they take to ding? Probably pull some people queuing mentor roulette to help you fill the party. Does mentor roulette include coil I dunno?

When it does ding though tell me how many attempts it takes to clear it or see it abandoned? Was there a newbie there?

My point is that even though these things might be in the duty finder the likely hood you could get a party and clear it is incredibly low. Because people wanting to farm it simply won't touch the duty finder without the option to filter out newbies.

Putting them in the duty finder ultimately helps no one.

Even for more current content. Queue a12s in the duty finder. Tell me how long that takes to ding. Or how long it takes to clear or get abandoned.... were there newbies?

Pretty sure that no one wanting to farm a12s is going to risk a duty finder group without a completed only option.

[bswpayton]

If its not a majority of people who'd use the option in the first place, what harm is done?


It may not take away our chance not to have the cleared-option in RF, but its making farming less convenient and more annyoing.

The thing about it is we agree on what your saying I have seen first hand in learning parties on zur where dps is so low from dps that not only do u see soar but u see it twice and demons claw. And this is in parties with just one tank, so I get the whole filter part of what your saying players that can perfectly do this content like its a puzzle with ease and finish and destroy it in 5 mins should be able to do this.

Where we disagree is that to me , the time for the filter is up you wont it to continue and it will continue just on new stuff no longer the old stuff and I'm 100 percent ok with that. Because the fact of the matter is that farmers have had things their way ever sense rf was released. Even week one of zur coming out people where already saying no the fight Id say even two days after it was released which is fine. But what Im sayin is that its very rare that people that are a bit slower to grasp on to mechanics etc get a chance to do it in ways they would like. So both sides have arguments to pretty much the same thing , but the difference is , is that farmers have had their filter for 6 months. So now its gone are others to feel bad about this? If a new person posted today in this forums I'm having trouble gettin a que for this or that primal what would be the very next post under it be well why dont you make a learning party.

So I say to you or anyone else on here why dont you make a no bonus party pf is full of them , and if someone sneaks in disband just like a learning party would do the same if things arent gettin anywhere. Its as simple as that , nobody is gona feel sorry for someone late to content and just now doing it people could careless so why expect sympathy from those who are still tryin to clear content and are happy its in duty finder when for so long you have had the perfect set up. You even said yourself you have your birds from ur methods and it worked, so just like people dont care about someone tryin to learn a fight should of been there when everyone else was learning I say to the farmers should of gotten all your birds like Vidu did before they went to Df.

LIke the commercial goes gota be quicker than that , but seriously with the new expansion everyone pretty much has a 100 percent shot at gettin a bird face roll the unsync content 99 times and you have your bird. Its not even rng based like the arr ponies are, but lets be honest someone tryin to make a learning group for a primal or raid thats unsyncable now id say they have about a 5 percent or less chance of that happening. So I think yea in the beginning sure have your filters in the mist, but now SE is just tryin to keep subs and make as many people happy as possible and thats why everything is in the df now more access for everyone the filter will return in sb for those who want it to regain their happiness.

[Dzian]

Square Enix is trying to keep the game healthy. Having players who flatly refuse to help new players is extremely unhealthy for a game like this. That's why there are so many mechanics designed to incentivize helping players.

the problem with those mechanics and incentives is they aren't worth the time investment....
newbie bonus in Sophia ex for example 100 lore I think it is... spend 90 mins wiping only to get timed out with nothing. or soend 15 minutes in a dungeon and be guaranteed 100 lore at the end.....

it might help some what if you got that newbie bonus regardless of outcome.. if you've spent an hour trying to help that newbie only for the group to fall apart you get nothing.. so in the end the incentive just gets lolled at because its worthless...

on a slightly different note though imo what is really unhealthy for the game is the difficulty curve is basically a horizontal line..... players don't get better as they progress through the game. because everything is deliberately easy... and that creats the massive skill gap that exists and that's why people don't want to help newbies... the level of skill you need to unlock zurvan ex for example is a million miles away from the level of skill you need to clear it.. you basically took a stroll along the beach and suddenly been faced with a sheer vertical cliff and the zurvan ex clear is at the top.. that's unhealthy for the game and all it does is frustrate players because either they feel ecluded cos everyone says no bonus. or b players repeatedly get queied with people that have no clue how to play there jobs.....

the game should get harder as you progress. not stay on the same horizontal line.... if it actually got harder as you progressed it'd be like climbing a hill / mountain and not a impossible cliff soo by the time a player cleared zurvan hard. and unlocked zurvan ex he'd already be maybe 3/4 of the way to the summit of actually clearing zurvan extreme. and in this environment you'd probably find players a lot more willing to help newbies. because those newbies are already 3/4 of the way up a hill instead of stood at the bottom of a great big cliff.

but when its a horizontal line. you really cant blame people for not wanting to risk queieng with newbies... would you let a total stranger you passed on the street fix your car just because they want to do it. or would you want some knowledge that they are actually a compentent mechanic before you even consider letting them near it...... if anything is unhealthy for the game its the learning curve

end of rant....

[bswpayton]

If titan ex was in the raid finder it really wouldn't matter at all.

Let me ask you this. How many people queue titan ex or coil t13 in the duty finder?

Maybe not titan extreme but I joined after hw like I mention and I cleared levi, garuda, ifrit, shiva, and ramuh all in the duty finder and the waits where about 30 mins or so. I never unlocked Odin, but yes I have gotten king moogle as well as Titan extreme in duty finder. So yea sure there wasnt a for sure chance at success, but it still was possible to clear the content through duty finder I dont see where the idea that its impossible to clear something in df. It wasnt even until thordan and up that I even had to use pf for content when they were in rf that I didnt get a que for stuff because it was far less used. So thats why Im scratching my head wondering when rf was even good I guess for sophia and zur and thats about it every other que was far longer than I ever waited in df.