What is up with this toxic community

[Istaru]

SNIP

Sigh.

I'm going to clarify myself again.

The 100% thing is what I was taught to hold myself to and it is the goal I look to achieve myself.

I do not gripe at tanks or badmouth ones that do not achieve that.

Only, I try to achieve that that goal myself without giving myself excuses to accept less than that without trying to learn from what happened to cause me to fail that goal. It has made me push myself to learn and improve.

[Shougun]

Sigh.

I'm going to clarify myself again.

The 100% thing is what I was taught to hold myself to and it is the goal I look to achieve myself.

I do not gripe at tanks or badmouth ones that do not achieve that.

Only, I try to achieve that that goal myself without giving myself excuses to accept less than that without trying to learn from what happened to cause me to fail that goal. It has made me push myself to learn and improve.

*grumble* *sigh* *cough* . . . lol (I don't know why it had to be included but I felt like doing it back :3)

I still stand my response to you though, it is incorrect standard to hold anyone even yourself. It's not your fault that the healer steals part of your train by using a big healing spell while you're in mid pull, which is an easy example I come back to because there is literally nothing you could do if a healer decided they wanted the back end of your monster caboose (which is why as a tank you're supposed to help them out by running a defensive cooldown and not make them sweat where you'll stop).

However, the more important reason why I responded was not because it was just your own personal mindset that never was shared - I might not be saying anything then "well you're judging yourself wrong but oh well I don't care" lol, it's that you'll teach anyone that way around you too (that'll you'll teach them wrong, as you were taught). I know wrong is a strong word, but as 100% of 100% (no excuse) is not true it is therefore factually incorrect..

I believe it is plausible to believe you might teach others this incorrect mindset, Tank and DD alike, because in previous chains you responded to someone saying that Yes it was okay for a blackmage to start big damage chains right out the gate (which is a bad idea, it's possible a tank to hold through that, but if they're not expecting it and you chain big spells on a shield lob that's the DD's fault not the tank's - tank shouldn't expect to have to use a provoke 2 seconds into the fight, that's silly). Of course after BLM goes dodo you can provoke, but a lot of enemies will queue an attack that you won't get much say in.. depending on the monster this may cause massive havoc on positioning or just flat out kill stuff. Also if there was a gear difference between tank and DD AND the DD did that I guarantee you would lose hate regardless of what you did.

I could absolutely pop into a dungeon, pop all my buffs, and DD as hard as I could as fast as I could before the tank can get close enough after their shield lob - and if there were multiple monsters I could easily make them dance and flounder trying to get aggro back properly (especially if there was a ranged monster in there).. Of course I'd probably die, but just an example that people must not follow 100% of 100% or tank failed.

You can follow that yourself I don't care, but that's not something we should teach the general public. It'll be used to blame people later, "I should be able to do whatever I want, and you just deal with it and hold all the aggro no matter what I do!" - that'd be wrong lol (and that would easily follow from 100% of 100% is your responsibility).

So it was more than just "your self judgement is weird" which I would have ignored - not my issue lol, it was I believe you're going to rub that off onto others and then it is wrong. There are reasons things go wrong that aren't your fault, you shouldn't be searching for them all the time of course.

I'm glad you strive to be the best, but I only responded because I'm concerned you teach others the way you were taught (at least that specific logic phrase, sounds like you care to do well, other tips are probably good ).

[Gemina]

I don't really do endgame content, but believe this is where the majority of the toxic community exists. So I honestly don't encounter these players very often. Once in awhile though, some of these players make their way into DF and keep their raiding expectations of other players intact.

A growing player base also means more toxic players. Then there is also the fact that many players are maxed out, and chomping at the bit for the expansion. The fuses on these players, is rather short.

Add it up and you get encounters with toxic players at a higher frequency. And the longer you've been playing, the more you're going to notice the community is not as it was when you started.

[TouchandFeel]

Honestly, there is not really a need to argue back and forth here.

From what I can gather, Istaru is stating that one should strive for perfection but never expect to actually reach it. It is the attempt to constantly push yourself to be better that is the point, not ever actually reaching "100%". By setting a goal that is as impossible as perfection, you will never reach it and therefore always have something to strive for. It is the eternal journey of self-improvement, which I personally feel is a path everyone should try to follow.

I will state that this idea, if I am correct in it, may have been muddled by introducing the concept of accountability which can result in a great many different interpretations and reactions to that word. Some take it to mean "fault" or "blame" which has an inherent negative connotation and often is seen as accusitory, resulting in a negative outlook on the idea presented as a whole.

Shougun is also correct in proposing that there will be things that are outside your control, such as the actions of others. You should not blame yourself or hold yourself accountable for things outside your control. Other people's actions are theirs and the only thing you can control is how you react or respond to them.

So really, the ideas being presented are not in opposition and can and should be sought after in a harmonious manner.

So basically:

Push yourself to be better and to always strive to learn and improve. It's when you settle for "good enough" that you no longer grow.

Don't beat yourself up over the actions of others, it was their actions and not yours and you can't control their actions only your reactions.

Blame and other such inherently negative actions rarely, if ever, have a positive outcome.
Inherently positive actions such as being helpful or understanding are much more likely to result in a positive outcome.
Funny how that is, isn't it

Holding yourself to high standards should apply not only to your actions, but your reactions to others' actions.

Lastly and perhaps most importantly, we all need to remember that it's a game we play to enjoy, so don't take things too seriously or personally and don't be a jerk. It's easier to have a fun time when those we're playing with are also having a fun time.

[Shougun]

Honestly, there is not really a need to argue back and forth here.

From what I can gather, Istaru is stating that one should strive for perfection but never expect to actually reach it. It is the attempt to constantly push yourself to be better that is the point, not ever actually reaching "100%". By setting a goal that is as impossible as perfection, you will never reach it and therefore always have something to strive for. It is the eternal journey of self-improvement, which I personally feel is a path everyone should try to follow.

I will state that this idea, if I am correct in it, may have been muddled by introducing the concept of accountability which can result in a great many different interpretations and reactions to that word. Some take it to mean "fault" or "blame" which has an inherent negative connotation and often is seen as accusitory, resulting in a negative outlook on the idea presented as a whole.

Shougun is also correct in proposing that there will be things that are outside your control, such as the actions of others. You should not blame yourself or hold yourself accountable for things outside your control. Other people's actions are theirs and the only thing you can control is how you react or respond to them.

So really, the ideas being presented are not in opposition and can and should be sought after in a harmonious manner.

So in summary:

Push yourself to be better and to always strive to learn and improve. It's when you settle for "good enough" that you no longer grow.

Don't beat yourself up for the actions of others, it was their actions and not yours and you can't control their actions only your reactions.

Blame and other such inherently negative actions rarely, if ever, have a positive outcome.
Inherently positive actions such as being helpful or understanding are much more likely to result in a positive outcome.
Funny how that is, isn't it

Holding yourself to high standards should apply not only to your actions, but your reactions to others' actions.

Lastly and perhaps most importantly, we all need to remember that it's a game we play to enjoy, so don't take things too seriously or personally and don't be a jerk. It's easier to have a fun time, when those we're playing with are also having a fun time.

Was not my interpretation of how it was said (key words, imo, and usage of absolutes) but if that's what they meant, that they strive to be the best under any situation and that it's not actually their fault when someone else hands them the bomb, just their responsibility to do the best with what they're given - then of course, I agree~

Definitely didn't get the feeling they slack off in dungeons, but I didn't want to see a bard taught "100% all the time no matter what" try to blame me for not holding hate when they barrage arrow a monster at the end of the train while I'm still chugging forward - I'm sorry but that's your fault bard lol (of course I'll go pick it up, but I'm not to blame for getting monster slapped).

+1 for amicable approach

[TouchandFeel]

Snip

I agree that it may not have been presented in the best or clearest manner. I simply wanted to try to distill the positive and actionable truths presented by what were being presented as oppositional arguments to show that they were not infact in opposition to each other and could work quite well together.

Essentially, I wanted to try to get people to stop pointing fingers at each other long enough that the common ground they are standing on could be pointed to instead.

However, I'll admit I may of course be completely mistaken in my interpretation of what was meant, but then I will leave that up to the person whose ideas I was referring to to correct me if that is the case.

I also understand your concern over people trying to place blame due to oversimplified concepts of "responsibility" and "accountability". I personally think such things are unproductive and can lead to less than desirable results.

I am of the opinion that all facets of a party's performance are the responsibility of the party as a whole. What a tank does such as positioning affects DPS output of the party, what a DPS does affects the way a healer has to heal which in turn can affect how a tank tanks and the DPS output of the party. All these parts are interlinked, so declaring that anything is the sole responsibility of any one person is not the way to go. People need to try to be flexible and work together to adjust as a party to the situation and circumstances that they are presented with.

[Voltyblast]

Snip

While the message is "probably" about to strive to improve and learn, do you honestly think that self blaming for every mistake, even the ones you objectively don't commit, is the way to go? A tank should always learn from the mistakes, not just say "it's my fault" and move on, not whipping him/herself because of it. And this is a surprise because this is the quintessence of toxicity, yet they even dare to say that they are a friendly community?

Shougun said it for me really: it's fine if that's your way of thought, but don't you try to share it with others as it basically tells you that no matter the mistake you do, even made from others, it's always your fault regardless of what happened and that is objectively wrong. I do mistakes but you won't see me doing self inflicted punishment because of it and nobody should because, as you said, this is a game and should be enjoyed and not worked on.

And this deeply saddens me because people praise this game for having one of the best communities around, yet it also has one of the most elitistic mindsets I've ever seen in an mmorpg.

[TouchandFeel]

While the message is "probably" about to strive to improve and learn, do you honestly think that self blaming for every mistake, even the ones you objectively don't commit, is the way to go? A tank should always learn from the mistakes, not just say "it's my fault" and move on, not whipping him/herself because of it. And this is a surprise because this is the quintessence of toxicity!

Shougun said it for me really: it's fine if that's your way of thought, but don't you try to share it with others as it basically tells you that no matter the mistake you do, even made from others, it's always your fault regardless of what happened and that is objectively wrong. I do mistakes but you won't see me doing self inflicted punishment because of it and nobody should because, as you said, this is a game and should be enjoyed and not worked on.

And this deeply saddens me because people praise this game for having one of the best communities around, yet it also has one of the most elitistic mindsets I've ever seen in an mmorpg.

I'm not sure you understood what I said or if you read all of it.

I spoke to that exact point and said that people should not do that, in fact I repeated "people should not blame themselves for things outside their control, such as the actions of others" multiple times.

As I already said, you are not responsible for the actions of another, only your reaction to them.

Also, please read the last two paragraphs of my response to Shougun that was directly above yours as it outlines my feelings towards "responsibility" in a party.

[Shougun]

:3

TouchAndFeel is all over here like "lets get along, teamwork, good community, compromise/middle ground, I think they meant well, let's all have fun!"

NO! THIS THREAD IS ABOUT A TOXIC COMMUNITY, (┛✧Д✧))┛彡┻━┻ - I'M NOT GOING TO HAVE YOUR GOOD FEELINGS RUIN IT. ♥ lol

[Voltyblast]

I'm not sure you understood what I said or if you read all of it.

I admit that I'm a little unfocused right now due to being quite late over here and having a killing headache (so I might even stop posting at all after this) but if anything I kinda think it's also time to move on. I think we debated on this "self-blaming" philosophy long enough and there's not much else to say: it's bad and self harming, but it's also quite spread around (it's not the first time someone thinks like this) and this is what in part makes this game have a toxic community, as these "mindsets" tend to create elitistic groups that only pretend to have the best of the best.

I mean let's not go too far: healers are mandatorily required to dps or they can be kicked - no two ways around it - and dps can be kicked for different playstyles (there's evidence that it's a possible reason for removal: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4029187) which enforces a mandatory playstyle or "toodles". All of these fixed and mandatory rules makes the game toxic and the "always blame the tank" is just one of them.

If anything I don't even know how to fix this: I think it's also partially the game's fault that enforces such a tight and inflexible composition in their groups because of "meta" work and the game only rewards for using said meta - infact this is why Paladins are totally ignored. On top of that the game is mostly solo played - remember when you couldn't even do levelling roulette in group? - and the only moment where you group up for real, is when you do dungeons or raids. So not only this causes issues with bad players not having learned much, but it also tends to pretend people to have stellar execution or "kick".