How to make the 3rd raid difficulty work

[Yeol]

The more you do easy content, the easier your next content will need to be.

I have raised this issue before and many people seemed to not understand that easy content lead to bad player-base on the long run.

[Watachy]

Snip

Bad player-base is here because of the western mentality.
People don't wanna invest themselves into the game these days.

"glamour si true endgame" has never been so true, when you parse a raid, dungeon or 24man raid you should be affraid.

When someone in your farm party just say "what's an opener ?", and being serious about it, you know that the farm ain't gonna be a farm but a clear/carry one.

As i said in others threads it's actually Thordan Ex that made me into savage and raiding because i litterally loved that fight and i realised i was doing bad/horrible things with my rotations back then.
SE you should put a content where people should realise "am i doing things right ?"

Because you can't say to someone they're doing things wrong these days, if you do so you're immediatly called an elitist idiot that won't let people play "the way they want to".

[Yeol]

Snip

And this is why JP average player skill is way higher than NA/EU.

I have an alt on tonberry and I just enjoy it. A friend of mine who also transfered there recently noticed the skill gap in DF.

[Reynhart]

Bad player-base is here because of the western mentality.
People don't wanna invest themselves into the game these days.

Make them. People who aren't ready to invest in your game are also people who will leave as soon as the next trendy MMO game launches. Making them your primary target is a bad move.

Because you can't say to someone they're doing things wrong these days, if you do so you're immediatly called an elitist idiot that won't let people play "the way they want to".

That's why the game should be the one to do so...first thing, make clearing SSS a requirement to have access to the corresponding content.

So here is a suggestion: We already have the option to upgrade tomestone gear (e.g. 260->270). Just let the hardest raid tier drop items, which can upgrade raid and tomestone gear an additional 5 ilvl (e.g. 270->275).

That won't work...people will complain that they don't have access to the i275 gear...It's why upgrade items were put in 24-man raids and hunts in the first place...
Besides, if you don't do Savage, you don't even need i270 items at all, so the upgrading option itself should not be available to non-raiders.

[BubblyBoar]

Make them. People who aren't ready to invest in your game are also people who will leave as soon as the next trendy MMO game launches. Making them your primary target is a bad move.

I'm a casual that doesn't do savage raids. I don't like that kind of content and it doesn't really interest me. The most I'll do are ex primals to gear my alts and such. I have been playing this game since 2.0's beta. I don't leave as soon as a new trendy MMO is out. I'm not horrible at the game, but I'm not the best either. I, at least, can clear the SSS of the content I do. I enjoy the game as something to do with friends and because I like the story. The inclusion of story mode was a godsend after being unable to do Coil. Coil wasn't just some one off side story like Alexander was. It was an integral part of the game that wrapped up what was a huge impact on the lore as a whole. The people that think I don't deserve do experience something that important to the story because I don't enjoy raiding are selfish. You already get gear, mounts, titles, minion, and everything else. All I wanted, and apparently what many other wanted was to experience the story in game. Normal mode did that and I'm happy with that.

So, no, normal mode didn't hurt FFXIV, it helped it. Stop putting the blame on normal mode and instead, put it on people who asked for content harder and more challenging than what they were ready for.

[Arutan]

So, no, normal mode didn't hurt FFXIV, it helped it. Stop putting the blame on normal mode and instead, put it on people who asked for content harder and more challenging than what they were ready for.

Normal didn't hurt the game, yes. What hurted the game is the people doing normal and wanted to do savage after experiencing the normal while they didn't have the gameplay/time for it. So they selfishely cried to the dev for them to lower savage difficulty, which they did. It's not about people asking for harder content.

[NolLacnala]

Normal didn't hurt the game, yes. What hurted the game is the people doing normal and wanted to do savage after experiencing the normal while they didn't have the gameplay/time for it. So they selfishely cried to the dev for them to lower savage difficulty, which they did. It's not about people asking for harder content.

Normal Alex also gave us what is debatably the worst drop system the game has seen, up there with Atmas and 24mans

[Reynhart]

I can understand that they complain but there is a way for them to receive this gear: Get better.

Which they apparently can't do, for whatever reason.

But being able to have it is incredibly nice.

It's true for any reward you may put in the game.

I'm a casual that doesn't do savage raids. I don't like that kind of content and it doesn't really interest me.

But the story is an integral part of "that kind of content". "Oh, look, Bahamut is a threat to all Eorzea, what a powerful foe !...that we can beat while watching Netflix"

I have been playing this game since 2.0's beta.

So, in fact Coil is an integral part of a story you didn't even play, and on top of that, that you probably wouldn't have cleared since 1.xx actually had challenging story fights.

So, no, normal mode didn't hurt FFXIV, it helped it.

Yes, it did, but it wasn't the only culprit. The other culprit is gear lifetime. Those two together reduced the raiding population because, suddenly, neither gear nor lore was a longtime reward for raiding.

So, if they stick to normal/savage mode to include people like you, they'd better improve the other incentive of raiding. Problem is, people who don't raid still think that they deserve equal rewards than raiders, and that's wrong. If the only thing that bothered casuals was doing the raid content, removing the ability to upgrade to i270 wouldn't actually hinder their progression at all.

[BubblyBoar]

But the story is an integral part of "that kind of content". "Oh, look, Bahamut is a threat to all Eorzea, what a powerful foe !...that we can beat while watching Netflix"

So, in fact Coil is an integral part of a story you didn't even play, and on top of that, that you probably wouldn't have cleared since 1.xx actually had challenging story fights.

Yes, it did, but it wasn't the only culprit. The other culprit is gear lifetime. Those two together reduced the raiding population because, suddenly, neither gear nor lore was a longtime reward for raiding.

So, if they stick to normal/savage mode to include people like you, they'd better improve the other incentive of raiding. Problem is, people who don't raid still think that they deserve equal rewards than raiders, and that's wrong. If the only thing that bothered casuals was doing the raid content, removing the ability to upgrade to i270 wouldn't actually hinder their progression at all.

And guess what? That challenge you want is being added as the third difficulty. So what if there is a normal mode, it doesn't diminish the satisfaction you get for beating the hardest version of the fight. Normal mode didn't diminish the threat of Alexander. That was a whole different issue. Lore-wise, you are the only one that beat it, no one else, so just because there is an easy version of the fight doesn't mean anything. The story is for everyone, it's literally the main selling point of Final Fantasy.

And I love how you just assume I'm a horrible player because I don't raid. Just because I don't like the content doesn't mean I don't try to be good at the game. I'm not top of FFLogs nor do I try to be. But I'm also not one of those DF horror ice mages. I know my opener and rotation. I work to play my class well. I even make pots and food because I enjoy crafting them. But I don't like raiding. Amazing right?

And no, normal mode wasn't a major part of what killed raiding. The major factor was people asking for more than they could chew, whether that was because normal gave them false confidence, or because they saw others clear final coil and thought it should be harder. As for gear, savage gear has always been better than the normal gear, I'm not even sure the point you are trying to make with that.

I'm not saying savage should be for me. I've said it many times that I'm not a raider. I'm happy with normal mode and just that. Are there people asking for savage nerfs? Yes, but they are fools and I've called them out on it. I even said in the very post you quoted that I don't want anything from savage, I just want my story, that's all. Please stop making me out to be some entitled cry baby. I don't want your gear or mounts or minions or titles. All I want is the story that normal gave me and I'm happy with it. Don't conflate me with the others.

[Reynhart]

No, all I can offer is observation and on Tiamat (very low population server) while the content was still relevant, I'd routinely see 10+ players at any given time wearing the titles.

Sorry, but "looking around you" is hardly a clear evidence.

I don't think this is a good idea for 2 reasons..: Balance and incentives.

"Balance" against what ? Every raider would have the same chance to drop those items.
As for incentive, even if you could get 8 pieces, you'd still need to do creator to complete your set. And if you didn't drop, Creator loot will help clearing every raid faster, thus increasing the odds of looting this special gear. Especially if this special gear is actually higher than i270.

And then there won't be anything to strive for with the gear when the raid is over too.

Yes, there is...Stormblood content. If the gear you drop won't get replaced until the next level cap, you'll use them far more than any normal drops.

And guess what? That challenge you want is being added as the third difficulty. So what if there is a normal mode, it doesn't diminish the satisfaction you get for beating the hardest version of the fight.

No, it diminishes the incentive to do it. Challenge only for the sake of challenge is boring.

And I love how you just assume I'm a horrible player because I don't raid.

I don't assume you're a horrible player. There's no difference between clearing Rivenroad in 1.23 and killing a raid boss. If you don't like that, you just probably wouldn't have done it. And if you would have, I'd like to understand why you don't like raiding ?

The major factor was people asking for more than they could chew

Sure, Gordias was brutal. But having a good incentive is what pushes people to get better. If there's none, they'll just say "fuck it, I can have on par gear without it"

As for gear, savage gear has always been better than the normal gear, I'm not even sure the point you are trying to make with that.

Yes, but why non-raiders should obtain same ilvl gear ?

I don't want your gear or mounts or minions or titles.

Maybe you don't, but people do. That's why we have alternate means of obtaining upgrade items since second coil.