The Feast is SO much better without chat

[Exira]

Did you read actually read what I said while you were laughing? "more people want to be/are interested in raiding than participating in pvp". Raiding is one of the major flagships of any MMO. Its the player end goal so to speak. The game is designed to progress you into raiding. To compare it to things like Lords of Vermillion, Chocobo Racing, and PVP is not objective. SE will always want a sturdy raiding system so it can remain competitive as an MMO, even if its a niche player base. The same is not true of other niche markets in the game.

i still don't understand why ppl here get mad for everything i wasnt laughin on u but the thing that ppl says : pvp is minority , raid is minority , everything is minority and my question was : what ppl actually do

[Chronons]

snip

Don't get me wrong now. Iv'e been PVPing since back when all we had was lvl 50 Wolve's Den and the only rewards were the fun of it. Ill continue to pvp regardless of whether SE removes chat, takes away our unique rewards, or whatever else could come down the pipeline. However, I would like to interact to a few of your points.

"Limited time and resources" is and will always be a true statement. Sure SE may have more money now than at other points in the games history, but that doesn't mean they can do everything. There is still a choice of risk/reward with time and funding. It will always be true that spending those resources on the majority will yield greater returns, unless they charge the minorities more for the same resource allocation.

I dont think they should ignore the niche communities in the game, especially PVP. I want my chat back in a ranked mode. Im tired of losing for stupid reasons. I have brought new people into PVP who have been frustrated with it because they cant ask question/get feedback on the fly. I dont even think that its morally acceptable for SE to ignore the PVP community regarding these issues. Im only saying that since we are a small community it is not surprising or unreasonable that SE drags their feet on it from a business perspective. They dont make as much money investing in PVP as they do in other areas. I dont like like that, but i'm not going to pretend like that is unreasonable from their perspective.

i still don't understand why ppl here get mad for everything i wasnt laughin on u but the thing that ppl says : pvp is minority , raid is minority , everything is minority and my question was : what ppl actually do

I am not mad, just forward. Argumentation does not have to equate to anger.

[SenSaitoru]

I don't pvp yet, so my opinion may not matter,but I think removing the chat is unfair for those who do pvp. There is toxic chat everywhere, like towns, duty finder and raids not just in pvp.I think the best thing to do is make turning off chat optional, it just seems more fair that way, but again that's just my opinion.

[Februs]

This is just wishful thinking. SE has limited resources and time. They will use those to affect the greatest number of players possible. That means invariably niche portions of the game will receive less attention. We all pay the same subscription fee, but SE stands to lose more money catering to minority interests than they do with the majority. Its not discrimination to run a business properly.

Also as an aside, more people want to be/are interested in raiding than participating in pvp. To compare the two is to compare apples and oranges.

There's nothing wishful about this.

Firstly, this myth about SE having limited resources needs to stop. SE is a big company with millions of dollars at their disposal. Worse yet, when SE releases their yearly profit margin, guess which game has been almost solely responsible for keeping their company in the green. Bingo. This one (the Tomb Raider reboots have done well, though). They're not hurting for anything. Regardless, the real myth here is that it would take any more resources than they are already using. It won't. SE implements the exact same system in PvP as it does in PvE, and it functions equally in both. Further, contrary to popular belief, SE does frequently ban people from PvP based on reports for illicit activities. Those bans are usually prioritized by cheating, followed by racial slurs, then harassment. There is no magical extra expense to their company by doing this, because they were already doing it. If I'm not mistaken, that particular aspect of the game is actually covered by their legally binding Terms of Service. Meaning that, regardless of expense, they must do what they have said that they will do. That's a fact. It's also worth pointing out that it is more than likely that none of our reports (PvE or PvP) actually see a real human's hands unless they are first flagged by an automated system, hence why a lot of things slip through the cracks.

Secondly, in what way is PvP somehow smaller or less relevant to their subscription base? What are we comparing here, exactly? Raids? Trials? Crafting/gathering? Casual dungeon runs? I'm sorry, but no. PvP has long held the stigma of having a "minority," except that minority is actually no smaller than something like the Savage Raid community. You cannot arbitrarily pick one group out of the whole and say they're not relevant, yet somehow not apply the same reasoning to every other niche area of this game by counting them as part of the whole. Further, if you want to talk about running a business properly, than they'd be going about it completely wrong. Why? Because the casual content of this game has no staying power. SE releases a whopping 2 dungeons per patch, followed by one raid. They stretch the lifespan of that content out a bit by applying weekly gear/tome caps, but in the end, you're still only running the same 3 things over and over. Further, if you do not participate in the niche community of extreme trials or savage raids, than you have no reason to EVER run that content repeatedly, because you have no need to optimize your gear. This is why casual players often drift from sub to sub, only renewing when new content is patched in. Do you know what keeps people subbed for longer periods of time? Investment (or time sync) content, which happens to be the minority content such as savage/extreme level raids, trials and PvP. SE has already acknowledged this fact. Their implementation of the feast was their first attempt at creating a sustainable PvP game mode for the sake of keeping people invested (hence the implementation of ranked seasons). They've also already publicly sated that Stormblood will have a stronger focus on PvP. Why? Because it has more staying power than casual content which gets stale after the first week. Ignoring the minority which provides a stable monetary gain is illogical for running a business.

Lastly, saying that more people are interested in attempting savage raids than PvP is an arbitrary statement that cannot be backed up by any evidence. Do you have proof of that? Is there data somewhere showing how many Savage level Raids are attempted per week compared to how many matches of PvP are played? Does SE ever mention it or provide data on the subject. No. They don't. In fact, if anything the information that we have would suggest otherwise. Do know how many savage level raid events there have been since 3.0? Zero, aside from the raids themselves. Do you know how many PvP events there have been? Six, including 3 seasons of Ranked Feast, 2 "developer spotlight" events (which could be further divided across data-centres), and the most recent garo event. That's an awful lot of commitment to a community which is supposedly a minority with less interest. Further, you can actually track how many PvP matches happen in a day by data centre. SE keeps score of our rankings, in which there are literally hundreds of matches played per person. The same cannot be said of the savage raid community, because there's simply no data to back up any such whimsical statements other than the fact that they are both relatively small when compared to the greater whole.

[Moonlite]

There's nothing wishful about this.

Not that I support wishful thinking stereo type. But if they don't have the skill labor to implement, then it doesn't matter how much money they have. It also seems/implied they are looking for Japanese skilled labor. If they can't find people to work with then they have no one.

To the report thing, yes they might get to everything eventually. They might ban that bot from 2.1 some time in 4.3 because it showed up on the list finally. You never tell your boss, it is on the list what would you like bumped if you want it done faster. I (not speaking for everyone) get no sense of justice from bans that happen after 72 hours. Do they even know it was because of how they treated someone on Wednesday feb first?

[Februs]

To the report thing, yes they might get to everything eventually. They might ban that bot from 2.1 some time in 4.3 because it showed up on the list finally.

Only reports are taken on a case by case basis.

It could take some time, sure. Or it could just be that SE did not find sufficient evidence to act on the report. Or they could have simply not deemed the report worthy of action.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be overly optimistic about the way SE handles their business. I'm a skeptic, through and through ... which is why I try not to limit my view to only one side of the table. For one, we have seen, first hand right here in these forums, evidence of people getting hit with PvP bans within as little as a couple of days. If the infraction is severe enough or substantiated by enough people, they jump on it. That's not an opinion. It has actually happened. It just doesn't happen often. Now, I could assume that the it doesn't happen frequently because of a labor shortage or a lack of funds, but I could just as easily assume that there's other reasons, including that SE does actually get to each report in a timely fashion and just doesn't tell us.

Just because someone reported someone, doesn't mean that SE has to take that person's word for it, and they certainly don't have to respond to anyone about it after the fact. They could, very simply, not find sufficient evidence to act on the report. They could also not see the reported action / words as an infraction worthy of action. If that's the case, then it could be a simple matter of them making stricter guidelines. Who knows? Only SE. What we know, with certainty, is that they already have a reporting system, and reports can go through in as little as a couple of days to a couple of months. There is no additional development time for this system. There's no additional cost, unless they feel the need to hire several new workers to act as GMs ... which seems unnecessary. Regardless, relying on that system, broken or not, is still better than a mass gag order on an entire section of their paying customers in one of the currently fastest growing areas of the game.

[Moonlite]

Mainly Balmung has quite a few bots where players were mpking and the whole server was reporting them. They were so obvious to if you moved the mob they would go through the actions in the spot the mob was suppose to be.

People praise SE fan base interaction. But it is all fake fluff. Real interaction would be these guys got banned for X. Or the reason the duty finder skips people is because we have a crappy system. I hated the crab guy in WoW pvp forums but I can respect he had real interaction and you could understand and see why.

[Chronons]

There's nothing wishful about this.

Yes it actually is.

Firstly, this myth about SE having limited resources needs to stop....

This is not a myth, it is a fact. Every firm that has ever or will ever exist has limited resources and time. The argument is not that SE does not have the money to fund the changes necessary for the PVP community. It is that they choose to spend those limited resources elsewhere, because it is more profitable to do so. Your inability to understand that or accept it as “fair”, has no bearing on its veridicality. The “magical extra expenses” are as follows: capital and time investment in a more robust PVP reporting system (applicable to any other PVP system for that matter), payment for man hours worked on development of said system, payment for man hours required to maintain and implement said system, payment for man hours required to communicate changes to the community, and the opportunity cost of investing all of the previous mentioned resources here as opposed to elsewhere.

If I'm not mistaken, that particular aspect of the game is actually covered by their legally binding Terms of Service. Meaning that, regardless of expense, they must do what they have said that they will do. That's a fact.

To suggest that SE would knowing and willingly enter into the contractual obligation to preserve users from interaction with cheaters or harassment is absolutely absurd. Their T&S give them the right over a paying consumer to take action against said consumer should they engage in those activities. It is in their best interest to keep such actions out of their game, but is by no measure legally binding. You are suggesting you have the right to take legal action against SE should you ever be harassed or affected by cheaters in the game.

Further, if you want to talk about running a business properly, than they'd be going about it completely wrong. Why? Because the casual content of this game has no staying power………… Do you know what keeps people subbed for longer periods of time? Investment (or time sync) content, which happens to be the minority content such as savage/extreme level raids, trials and PvP. SE has already acknowledged this fact. Their implementation of the feast was their first attempt at creating a sustainable PvP game mode for the sake of keeping people invested (hence the implementation of ranked seasons). They've also already publicly sated that Stormblood will have a stronger focus on PvP. Why? Because it has more staying power than casual content which gets stale after the first week. Ignoring the minority which provides a stable monetary gain is illogical for running a business.

Nowhere did I suggest that SE should not invest in PVP. What I suggested is that they will not invest in the changes that the veteran/hardcore PVPers desire. That is what the majority of this thread and all of the other related ones consist of. The casual PVP player does not generally care about having chat, they do not want to have to grind to receive unique rewards, or having strongly competitive matches. Their main objectives are fun and accessibility. SE has tried to push their PVP. However, they have not done so by trying to increase the amount of hardcore/midcore/veteran players in the community. They have done so by attempting to increase the number of casual players who PVP. That means it is unlikely that we will see the changes desired by a growing minority of veteran/hardcore PVP players – hence the wishful thinking.

Lastly, saying that more people are interested in attempting savage raids than PvP is an arbitrary statement that cannot be backed up by any evidence. Do you have proof of that?

Evidenced by the fact that there are 16 Savage duties, not including Ex Primals. There are 6 PVP modes, 3 of which are dead. Evidenced by a scanning of the Party Finder on any given day, you will find more Savage parties than PVP ones. Evidenced by the game structure, you are forced to play normal modes of fights to progress through story exposing you to the concepts – never are you forced to PVP. Evidenced by que times during timeframes that don’t have incentivized events. Evidenced by threads on this website outlining player experience regarding difficulty of getting into matches during downtime – solo que PVP late in a season, Secure, Slaughter, and Wolves Den. Evidenced by the time taken to implement player requested changes – Savage changes often take weeks after player feedback, see PVP GC requirements or Season 2 Feast cheater threads for examples. Evidenced by questions asked and answered in Live Letters. Evidenced by order and breadth of detail in Patch Notes.

I don’t know how the number of PVP matches stacks up to Savage raids attempted, but that is not a measure of what SE prioritizes. The game steers players towards Savage content, not PVP. Therefore it seems obvious to me that SE prioritizes it more than PVP. I highly doubt SE would prioritize something that would generate lesser returns on investment. It is simple, if SE had to cut one – either PVP content or Savage raiding today, do you honestly believe they would choose to keep PVP over Savage?

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

What I suggested is that they will not invest in the changes that the veteran/hardcore PVPers desire.

That is the very antithesis of target marketing. Who should I cater to; the customer who'll only come in when there's something new and interesting, or the customer who's a regular? The answer's pretty obvious.

[Chronons]

That is the very antithesis of target marketing. Who should I cater to; the customer who'll only come in when there's something new and interesting, or the customer who's a regular? The answer's pretty obvious.

Unless they are able to turn the casual player into a regular, via integrating them in the PVP system. It could also be the case that the retention rate for veteran PVP players does not drop a significant level when SE has a low priority on their grievances. I know you are one who doesn't like the Feast chat changes, do you still pay a sub fee?

Afterthought Edit-
We dont know that SE conducts or even values target marketing as a business strategy. Target marketing is not always successful.