The Feast is SO much better without chat

[Februs]

This is just wishful thinking. SE has limited resources and time. They will use those to affect the greatest number of players possible. That means invariably niche portions of the game will receive less attention. We all pay the same subscription fee, but SE stands to lose more money catering to minority interests than they do with the majority. Its not discrimination to run a business properly.

Also as an aside, more people want to be/are interested in raiding than participating in pvp. To compare the two is to compare apples and oranges.

There's nothing wishful about this.

Firstly, this myth about SE having limited resources needs to stop. SE is a big company with millions of dollars at their disposal. Worse yet, when SE releases their yearly profit margin, guess which game has been almost solely responsible for keeping their company in the green. Bingo. This one (the Tomb Raider reboots have done well, though). They're not hurting for anything. Regardless, the real myth here is that it would take any more resources than they are already using. It won't. SE implements the exact same system in PvP as it does in PvE, and it functions equally in both. Further, contrary to popular belief, SE does frequently ban people from PvP based on reports for illicit activities. Those bans are usually prioritized by cheating, followed by racial slurs, then harassment. There is no magical extra expense to their company by doing this, because they were already doing it. If I'm not mistaken, that particular aspect of the game is actually covered by their legally binding Terms of Service. Meaning that, regardless of expense, they must do what they have said that they will do. That's a fact. It's also worth pointing out that it is more than likely that none of our reports (PvE or PvP) actually see a real human's hands unless they are first flagged by an automated system, hence why a lot of things slip through the cracks.

Secondly, in what way is PvP somehow smaller or less relevant to their subscription base? What are we comparing here, exactly? Raids? Trials? Crafting/gathering? Casual dungeon runs? I'm sorry, but no. PvP has long held the stigma of having a "minority," except that minority is actually no smaller than something like the Savage Raid community. You cannot arbitrarily pick one group out of the whole and say they're not relevant, yet somehow not apply the same reasoning to every other niche area of this game by counting them as part of the whole. Further, if you want to talk about running a business properly, than they'd be going about it completely wrong. Why? Because the casual content of this game has no staying power. SE releases a whopping 2 dungeons per patch, followed by one raid. They stretch the lifespan of that content out a bit by applying weekly gear/tome caps, but in the end, you're still only running the same 3 things over and over. Further, if you do not participate in the niche community of extreme trials or savage raids, than you have no reason to EVER run that content repeatedly, because you have no need to optimize your gear. This is why casual players often drift from sub to sub, only renewing when new content is patched in. Do you know what keeps people subbed for longer periods of time? Investment (or time sync) content, which happens to be the minority content such as savage/extreme level raids, trials and PvP. SE has already acknowledged this fact. Their implementation of the feast was their first attempt at creating a sustainable PvP game mode for the sake of keeping people invested (hence the implementation of ranked seasons). They've also already publicly sated that Stormblood will have a stronger focus on PvP. Why? Because it has more staying power than casual content which gets stale after the first week. Ignoring the minority which provides a stable monetary gain is illogical for running a business.

Lastly, saying that more people are interested in attempting savage raids than PvP is an arbitrary statement that cannot be backed up by any evidence. Do you have proof of that? Is there data somewhere showing how many Savage level Raids are attempted per week compared to how many matches of PvP are played? Does SE ever mention it or provide data on the subject. No. They don't. In fact, if anything the information that we have would suggest otherwise. Do know how many savage level raid events there have been since 3.0? Zero, aside from the raids themselves. Do you know how many PvP events there have been? Six, including 3 seasons of Ranked Feast, 2 "developer spotlight" events (which could be further divided across data-centres), and the most recent garo event. That's an awful lot of commitment to a community which is supposedly a minority with less interest. Further, you can actually track how many PvP matches happen in a day by data centre. SE keeps score of our rankings, in which there are literally hundreds of matches played per person. The same cannot be said of the savage raid community, because there's simply no data to back up any such whimsical statements other than the fact that they are both relatively small when compared to the greater whole.

[Moonlite]

There's nothing wishful about this.

Not that I support wishful thinking stereo type. But if they don't have the skill labor to implement, then it doesn't matter how much money they have. It also seems/implied they are looking for Japanese skilled labor. If they can't find people to work with then they have no one.

To the report thing, yes they might get to everything eventually. They might ban that bot from 2.1 some time in 4.3 because it showed up on the list finally. You never tell your boss, it is on the list what would you like bumped if you want it done faster. I (not speaking for everyone) get no sense of justice from bans that happen after 72 hours. Do they even know it was because of how they treated someone on Wednesday feb first?

[Februs]

To the report thing, yes they might get to everything eventually. They might ban that bot from 2.1 some time in 4.3 because it showed up on the list finally.

Only reports are taken on a case by case basis.

It could take some time, sure. Or it could just be that SE did not find sufficient evidence to act on the report. Or they could have simply not deemed the report worthy of action.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be overly optimistic about the way SE handles their business. I'm a skeptic, through and through ... which is why I try not to limit my view to only one side of the table. For one, we have seen, first hand right here in these forums, evidence of people getting hit with PvP bans within as little as a couple of days. If the infraction is severe enough or substantiated by enough people, they jump on it. That's not an opinion. It has actually happened. It just doesn't happen often. Now, I could assume that the it doesn't happen frequently because of a labor shortage or a lack of funds, but I could just as easily assume that there's other reasons, including that SE does actually get to each report in a timely fashion and just doesn't tell us.

Just because someone reported someone, doesn't mean that SE has to take that person's word for it, and they certainly don't have to respond to anyone about it after the fact. They could, very simply, not find sufficient evidence to act on the report. They could also not see the reported action / words as an infraction worthy of action. If that's the case, then it could be a simple matter of them making stricter guidelines. Who knows? Only SE. What we know, with certainty, is that they already have a reporting system, and reports can go through in as little as a couple of days to a couple of months. There is no additional development time for this system. There's no additional cost, unless they feel the need to hire several new workers to act as GMs ... which seems unnecessary. Regardless, relying on that system, broken or not, is still better than a mass gag order on an entire section of their paying customers in one of the currently fastest growing areas of the game.

[Chronons]

There's nothing wishful about this.

Yes it actually is.

Firstly, this myth about SE having limited resources needs to stop....

This is not a myth, it is a fact. Every firm that has ever or will ever exist has limited resources and time. The argument is not that SE does not have the money to fund the changes necessary for the PVP community. It is that they choose to spend those limited resources elsewhere, because it is more profitable to do so. Your inability to understand that or accept it as “fair”, has no bearing on its veridicality. The “magical extra expenses” are as follows: capital and time investment in a more robust PVP reporting system (applicable to any other PVP system for that matter), payment for man hours worked on development of said system, payment for man hours required to maintain and implement said system, payment for man hours required to communicate changes to the community, and the opportunity cost of investing all of the previous mentioned resources here as opposed to elsewhere.

If I'm not mistaken, that particular aspect of the game is actually covered by their legally binding Terms of Service. Meaning that, regardless of expense, they must do what they have said that they will do. That's a fact.

To suggest that SE would knowing and willingly enter into the contractual obligation to preserve users from interaction with cheaters or harassment is absolutely absurd. Their T&S give them the right over a paying consumer to take action against said consumer should they engage in those activities. It is in their best interest to keep such actions out of their game, but is by no measure legally binding. You are suggesting you have the right to take legal action against SE should you ever be harassed or affected by cheaters in the game.

Further, if you want to talk about running a business properly, than they'd be going about it completely wrong. Why? Because the casual content of this game has no staying power………… Do you know what keeps people subbed for longer periods of time? Investment (or time sync) content, which happens to be the minority content such as savage/extreme level raids, trials and PvP. SE has already acknowledged this fact. Their implementation of the feast was their first attempt at creating a sustainable PvP game mode for the sake of keeping people invested (hence the implementation of ranked seasons). They've also already publicly sated that Stormblood will have a stronger focus on PvP. Why? Because it has more staying power than casual content which gets stale after the first week. Ignoring the minority which provides a stable monetary gain is illogical for running a business.

Nowhere did I suggest that SE should not invest in PVP. What I suggested is that they will not invest in the changes that the veteran/hardcore PVPers desire. That is what the majority of this thread and all of the other related ones consist of. The casual PVP player does not generally care about having chat, they do not want to have to grind to receive unique rewards, or having strongly competitive matches. Their main objectives are fun and accessibility. SE has tried to push their PVP. However, they have not done so by trying to increase the amount of hardcore/midcore/veteran players in the community. They have done so by attempting to increase the number of casual players who PVP. That means it is unlikely that we will see the changes desired by a growing minority of veteran/hardcore PVP players – hence the wishful thinking.

Lastly, saying that more people are interested in attempting savage raids than PvP is an arbitrary statement that cannot be backed up by any evidence. Do you have proof of that?

Evidenced by the fact that there are 16 Savage duties, not including Ex Primals. There are 6 PVP modes, 3 of which are dead. Evidenced by a scanning of the Party Finder on any given day, you will find more Savage parties than PVP ones. Evidenced by the game structure, you are forced to play normal modes of fights to progress through story exposing you to the concepts – never are you forced to PVP. Evidenced by que times during timeframes that don’t have incentivized events. Evidenced by threads on this website outlining player experience regarding difficulty of getting into matches during downtime – solo que PVP late in a season, Secure, Slaughter, and Wolves Den. Evidenced by the time taken to implement player requested changes – Savage changes often take weeks after player feedback, see PVP GC requirements or Season 2 Feast cheater threads for examples. Evidenced by questions asked and answered in Live Letters. Evidenced by order and breadth of detail in Patch Notes.

I don’t know how the number of PVP matches stacks up to Savage raids attempted, but that is not a measure of what SE prioritizes. The game steers players towards Savage content, not PVP. Therefore it seems obvious to me that SE prioritizes it more than PVP. I highly doubt SE would prioritize something that would generate lesser returns on investment. It is simple, if SE had to cut one – either PVP content or Savage raiding today, do you honestly believe they would choose to keep PVP over Savage?

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

What I suggested is that they will not invest in the changes that the veteran/hardcore PVPers desire.

That is the very antithesis of target marketing. Who should I cater to; the customer who'll only come in when there's something new and interesting, or the customer who's a regular? The answer's pretty obvious.

[Chronons]

That is the very antithesis of target marketing. Who should I cater to; the customer who'll only come in when there's something new and interesting, or the customer who's a regular? The answer's pretty obvious.

Unless they are able to turn the casual player into a regular, via integrating them in the PVP system. It could also be the case that the retention rate for veteran PVP players does not drop a significant level when SE has a low priority on their grievances. I know you are one who doesn't like the Feast chat changes, do you still pay a sub fee?

Afterthought Edit-
We dont know that SE conducts or even values target marketing as a business strategy. Target marketing is not always successful.

[Februs]

capital and time investment in a more robust PVP reporting system (applicable to any other PVP system for that matter), payment for man hours worked on development of said system, payment for man hours required to maintain and implement said system, payment for man hours required to communicate changes to the community, and the opportunity cost of investing all of the previous mentioned resources here as opposed to elsewhere.

You're obviously a skim reader, because you clearly missed the point. Let me spell it out for you. THE SYSTEM IS ALREADY THERE. You're making the completely incorrect assumption that they would have to implement something new. They wouldn't, because it already exists. There is literally no development time here, and there would be no redistribution of funds or manpower. We also have HISTORICAL EVIDENCE of that system being used and acted upon in the past, right here in the forums. It is still being used now, which means that only waste of time, money, and manpower was their development of a new chat-restriction and quick-chat system. This is especially the case because SE is still going through the reports we submit through the reporting system (which still includes PvP), meaning they now wasted time, money, and manpower on a completely new system while they are still, at the same time, using the old one. Hitting the delete button is far cheaper and easier than managing two systems at once.

Nowhere did I suggest that SE should not invest in PVP.

I never suggested that you suggested that ... moving on.

What I suggested is that they will not invest in the changes that the veteran/hardcore PVPers desire. That is what the majority of this thread and all of the other related ones consist of. The casual PVP player does not generally care about having chat, they do not want to have to grind to receive unique rewards, or having strongly competitive matches.

Completely false.

Firstly, you're still making arbitrary statements that you cannot back up with facts, such as "the casual PvP community does not generally care about having chat." SE hasn't done a survey or census on the topic, so I'd love to know how you know that the bulk of the casual community does not care about chat. The forum threads? Last I checked, we're 60 pages deep into this issue and there have been numerous self-proclaimed new and casual players who hate it. Even players who don't PvP hate it. Funnily enough, there's one just above my first response to you right here in this thread. Regardless, I'm not going to waste time arguing against empty opinions that cannot be substantiated. Moving on.

Their main objectives are fun and accessibility.

Their main objective is to make money, but nice try. They've also shown this in several other areas of the game that focus more on grind rather than fun. Some off hand examples would be the relic quests, weekly tome caps, weekly gear caps, the entire crafting and gathering system .. etc. Again, the point is giving people a time sync. Most MMO's work off of a similar system, so there's nothing new about that when it comes to FFxiv. It's a pretty well documented model of operation.

SE has tried to push their PVP. However, they have not done so by trying to increase the amount of hardcore/midcore/veteran players in the community.

Also incorrect.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume you weren't around in the PvP scene back in the day, because the reality is pretty far from your theory. To enlighten you, before Feast came out, PvP was fairly dead. Wolves Den had been a tremendous flop, and Front Lines was lack luster. Each new game mode replaced the last one and none of them had staying power. The majority of people you saw in matches were -you guessed it- regulars. The only thing keeping PvP alive was the target market it was designed for, which also happened to be the same people who organized a tracking system for matches played because SE won't do it themselves. Saved them some money, I suppose... Anyway, Feast came out. It was SE's first attempt at a more "hardcore" version of PvP, and queues had never been faster. Strangely, however, the casual 8v8 mode died pretty quickly. Yet, despite this, the hardcore 4v4 scene kept on going. Three seasons in, and it is still going ... very peculiar.

So far, the only casual draw to PvP has been the Garo event, which - to SE's credit - has been a resounding success. That said, it's not over. You can speculate on how well or poorly that will grow or sustain the community if you want to, but speculation is not fact. We can only wait and see how many of the new blood stick around versus how many of the old blood have flat out dropped the game over this.

Evidenced by the fact that there are 16 Savage duties, not including Ex Primals. There are 6 PVP modes, 3 of which are dead. Evidenced by a scanning of the Party Finder on any given day, you will find more Savage parties than PVP ones.

All of these things have answers to them that are completely unrelated to your point, so, again, nice try. Firstly, comparing the general size of two communities is one thing, but comparing the content is another. You are very conveniently forgetting that all of the raids, dungeons, and trials in this game are designed to be progressive. Each new raid springboards off of the old one, and only the most recent raids are actually active. PvP is not like that. You want to talk about comparing apples and oranges? Because that's what you just did. Secondly, I see your party finder reference, and I raise you pages of rankings for Pre-made groups in Feast who have, no joke, hundreds upon hundreds of games played between each of them. It's not that Pre-made PvP is not a thing. It's that it is an exclusive thing. You're not likely to see recruitment adds in the PF, because PvP'ers are there to win. They're not there to swap out a bunch of random parts and fail a dozen times until they finally get it right. Again, you are talking about things that you do not know. Just because you're not a part of that community does not somehow make it small or less relevant.

I don’t know how the number of PVP matches stacks up to Savage raids attempted, but that is not a measure of what SE prioritizes.

You hit the nail on the head with this one. It's abundantly clear that there are several things which you don't know, but you're right that SE does prioritize PvE content ... So what? FFxiv is a PvE game. It always has been. PvP wasn't even implemented until patch 2.1. It will always come second to the standard content, but what does that have to do with SE taking a responsible stance towards their product? No one is asking SE to spend oodles of money here or shift the entire focus of the game. We're asking them to stop wasting money on entirely new systems that are far worse than the one they already had in place. We're asking them to communicate with their players. We're asking them to stop violating basic human rights and freedoms. We're asking them to provide fair and equal customer service. Regardless of whatever twisted reasoning you're undoubtedly going to apply to this, these are not unreasonable requests, and even if what you are saying were completely true (which it's not), it wouldn't make it right. Hopefully, by this point, you can see that. If not, then I'm not sure anyone can help you.

[Chronons]

You're obviously a skim reader, because you clearly missed the point. Let me spell it out for you.

I answered every one of your main points as clearly and as concisely as possible. Just because you may not agree with my rebuttals doesn’t mean I missed your message.

THE SYSTEM IS ALREADY THERE

Then what need is there for a change? You are advocating for it to be upgraded, reworked, or implemented more. All of which require the resources I laid out for you. The system SE has chosen to implement requires the initial investment of development, but no hassles of handling reports that having a chat requires into the future. No matter how emphatically you insist that using the ban system more wouldn't incur a cost, its wrong.

I never suggested that you suggested that ... moving on.

Well, you felt the need to write about how important it was for SE to invest in PVP so their game would have longer subscription periods. I felt it was pertinent to address it.

Firstly, you're still making arbitrary statements that you cannot back up with facts, such as "the casual PvP community does not generally care about having chat." SE hasn't done a survey or census on the topic, so I'd love to know how you know that the bulk of the casual community does not care about chat. The forum threads? Last I checked, we're 60 pages deep into this issue and there have been numerous self-proclaimed new and casual players who hate it. Even players who don't PvP hate it. Funnily enough, there's one just above my first response to you right here in this thread. Regardless, I'm not going to waste time arguing against empty opinions that cannot be substantiated. Moving on.

Surveys are not the only measure to be taken into account. I have news for you, people really vote with their feet - not surveys. If the chat removal was such that it was insurmountable by the PVP community, casual or otherwise they would stop playing PVP or worse - un sub. You do realize that you are discounting my opinion for your own unsubstantiated opinion right? Despite the fact that you have no evidence to suggest that your assumption is right. I can at least point to what people are actually doing as a data point for what might be true.

Their main objective is to make money, but nice try.

You do understand that it meant that casual PVPer’s objectives are fun and accessibility as opposed to others who want competition, strategy and long term goals. Wasn't talking about SEs objectives. Don't skim read, its rude.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume you weren't around in the PvP scene back in the day, because the reality is pretty far from your theory.

Nope, I’ve been PVPing since all there was Wolves Den. SE introduced team based modes like Secure and Slaughter to get more people to play that weren’t interested in the very straight forward Wolves Den mode. We then saw Seal Rock and Shatter added over time. Both of which added more of a PVE element to PVP modes. You can help your team now without ever having to actually PVP. SE has always been interesting in getting more players into PVP, especially their biggest player base – the casuals.

All of these things have answers to them that are completely unrelated to your point, so, again, nice try.

I gave you a laundry list of evidence. I'm sorry it doesn't back up your narrative, but its there none the less. Maybe if you call it arbitrary it will go away.

You hit the nail on the head with this one. It's abundantly clear that there are several things which you don't know, but you're right that SE does prioritize PvE content ... So what? FFxiv is a PvE game. It always has been. PvP wasn't even implemented until patch 2.1. It will always come second to the standard content, but what does that have to do with SE taking a responsible stance towards their product? No one is asking SE to spend oodles of money here or shift the entire focus of the game. We're asking them to stop wasting money on entirely new systems that are far worse than the one they already had in place. We're asking them to communicate with their players. We're asking them to stop violating basic human rights and freedoms. We're asking them to provide fair and equal customer service.

Wow there is a lot in this one. So you agree SE prioritizes PVE over PVP, then we can stop using Savage as a response to why PVP should get the same attention. Cool, MOVING ON. If you want them to stop wasting money on stupid things like chat macros then threaten to un-sub and mean it. They have already called the bluff. The only response we have gotten from SE is - Oh, we will make you some more macros that you hate. Please look forward to it. Beyond that you don’t have basic rights and freedoms in a pretend world played on the computer that you pay to be apart. Where is that Eorzian Constitution when I need it… SE can censor whatever, whenever they want.
Look, I don’t disagree with your sentiments. As I have said previously in this thread I am, have been, and will continue to be a FFXIV PVP junkie despite whatever SE does. However, I don’t agree that we disenfranchised players have any kind of moral high ground or authority over what SE does or will do with their business model as many seem to suggest.

Regardless of whatever twisted reasoning you're undoubtedly going to apply to this, these are not unreasonable requests, and even if what you are saying were completely true (which it's not), it wouldn't make it right. Hopefully, by this point, you can see that. If not, then I'm not sure anyone can help you.

Facts don't care about your feelings.