Red Mage is Range Combat? (Discussion)

[Renik]

Then the question becomes this:

Why not just stay in melee range at all times then?

I'm sure they will have magic potency reduced when in melee range, RDM will be constantly moving in and out using charge and back flip ogcd skills, to build stacks, that's how I see it.

And to GMERC, if you're expecting a ranged mage, you're not getting what you wanted, I know it's not a 50/50 (for now) but more like 60/40 or 70/30 as Gumbercules said. SE used the tag ranged DPS but during the keynote it was described as ranged/melee hybrid.

[Omegakiyohime]

I'm sure they will have magic potency reduced when in melee range, RDM will be constantly moving in and out using charge and back flip ogdc skills, to build stacks, that's how I see it.

Tbh I'm not so sure about the reduced potency in melee range. Seems like that would kill Rdm dps during a lot of fight mechanics that require one to stack or avoid something on the field. Especially since there really isn't anything outside of avoiding AoEs and movement while casting that is keeping Blm/Smn from being played in Melee range.

I could see SE forcing a min requirement on the positional skills though and having those combo into weaponskills/more magic i.e. Rdm can't use the big nuke until pulling off a melee combo that ends with a back flip move usable only at a certain distance. I could see the same with weaponskill combos and chaining magic. This way you have an incentive to pay attention to positioning, but aren't completely screwed during periods when those positions can't be reached.

[EdwinLi]

I am just stating my own opinion here but I am guessing the sword skills are mostly magic energy sword skills thus they're still range attacks but mostly sword slash waves of magical energy for the range attacks and the closing in attacks are just range charge attacks that end with the Red Mage Jumping back into position.

I don't think they're going for the whole "force players into melee combat then back to range combat then back to melee then back to range" thing as a mechanic but just sticking with Range combat with skills having animations of the Red Mage getting up close and personal for a moment before returning to position.

Tbh I'm not so sure about the reduced potency in melee range. Seems like that would kill Rdm dps during a lot of fight mechanics that require one to stack or avoid something on the field. Especially since there really isn't anything outside of avoiding AoEs and movement while casting that is keeping Blm/Smn from being played in Melee range.

I could see SE forcing a min requirement on the positional skills though and having those combo into weaponskills/more magic i.e. Rdm can't use the big nuke until pulling off a melee combo that ends with a back flip move usable only at a certain distance. I could see the same with weaponskill combos and chaining magic. This way you have an incentive to pay attention to positioning, but aren't completely screwed during periods when those positions can't be reached.

Not to mention the dangerous cliffs of doom parts in certain boss fights where players may accidently jump off to their doom or land on a dangerous spot they must always avoid.

[Duelle]

Clearly you can't. You need to understand that RDM is a caster before a melee fighter. Always has been. The strongest of their abilities, in any incarnation of the franchise, has always been what they can dish out magically.

That's debatable, since turn-based combat becomes about using what's most efficient per turn. Hence why something like enspells would never work with turn-based combat, specially when you have the option of using that turn for nukes or heals (which unarguably get you more bang for your buck). The base concept of the job is a guy with a sword that uses magic. Using a sword involves being in melee range. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if they had shown us the RDM in melee range doing their thing with Lunge (gap closer) and not-Repelling Shot acting as mere mobility tools. As I've said, it's almost like they ignored the feedback from the melee threads.

Play XI then come back. If you think this is an afterthought, you would dread at what they did with RDM melee capability in that game.

One has nothing to do with the other. XI's RDM was a disservice to everyone who liked the idea of a magic swordsman, but this seeming token use of melee attacks is not a positive on its own.

I am not sure why your are discounting ogcds. The stance changes likely are, as is the instant magic attack shown in the video, but it is all contributed to damage. Shit man, at least you got some kind of melee damage even if you want to look at it as only two gcds used.

Again, melee mage. Magic swordsman. Do you realize how nonsensical it sounds to force a guy with a short-range melee weapon to have to get away from their target? At this point the only difference between this and the FFXI version is that at least the RDM gets to keep their sword on instead of dropping the sword entirely for a staff. Given the trick weapon the job was given, even that is only a half-truth.

How about those of us who like the healing aspect of rdm?

You mean the ternary element of the job's concept that is not enough to design a job around? Not even getting into shit like pink mage nor how iconoclastic it is for the guy with a sword and magic to become a heal bot.

[GMERC]

Not even getting into shit like pink mage nor how iconoclastic it is for the guy with a sword and magic to become a heal bot.

The only heal bot you should ever have in your party is named Eos. If your human healers are heal bots, they need replacing because they're dead weight. Proper Healers can do plenty of damage, and while Healer Role wasn't something I wanted RDM to be anymore, it still would have been a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the job.

[Hyrist]

*snip*

Duelle,

You've become far too hardline in this stance over time, and you're beginning to mar yourself and other proponents by doing so.

First off, Red Mage was never swordsman first. In truth if we're speaking logicly, the casting has always taken the forefront of Red Mage, though always entangled and by a narrow margin. I'm not talking FFXI exclusively here, I'm talking through it's whole history. Please do not historically confuse Red Mage with Sorcerer. Sorcerers has always been the sword-caster.

That said, Melee is an inseparable part of the class and yes, the meta of FFXI did Red Mage a large disservice. But to stress, THIS IS NOT HAPPENING HERE. It was abundantly clear that a good portion of skill kit comes from adjusting the class's positioning. This would not be needed if it was primarily attacking only from range. To have both a closer, and a distance maker indicates that this class will be diving in and out of close range frequently. So both caster and melee will be important implementation.

And to be completely fair, attack magic was the MINORITY of that display. The first three skills seemed to be status inflicts of some sort (I'm guessing the first was chainspell. I don't know what the second was, but the third was some sort of restorative buff, by the coloring.) Then we have three melee attacks. The gap close, the attack skill, and the Gap maker. Then we had all of one offensive magic cast, at the very end, which did not even seem to have a cast time.

For someone claiming to not be passing judgement, you are clearly jumping the gun, and jumping it hard.

Red Mage has always been the versatile combat mage who sports both magic and swords. It has never been exclusively a front-line entity, nor a back line entity and I can see the pains SE has taken to keep that true here. Yes, A Red Mage casts spells, even at a distance, even at close range. That's part of the Job's original allure. Please don't become so enamored with your own vision of Red Mage that you deny any other of yourself, other players, and most especially the developers.

Please, pack it in. It's waay too early to be this heated on it.

[Musashidon]

Please don't become so enamored with your own vision of Red Mage that you deny any other of yourself, other players, and most especially the developers.

the whole reason most debate happens is solely because of this reason.

people who say red mage is mainly magic with some physical or some who say red mage was more physical with some magic.

the person who he was talking to even said

Clearly you can't. You need to understand that RDM is a caster before a melee fighter. Always has been. The strongest of their abilities, in any incarnation of the franchise, has always been what they can dish out magically.

kinda a shame to solely call out duelle and not the other person too.

[Omegakiyohime]

I wonder what spell/mechanic Rdm will get to replenish MP like the other DPS casters. Part of me is hoping for some type of self "Refresh" spell/skill/weaponskill effect as a callback to past Rdms.

[Duelle]

You've become far too hardline in this stance over time, and you're beginning to mar yourself and other proponents by doing so.

I speak for myself, and always aim to. Others who want certain things out of RDM are free and should disagree with me if they feel the need to.

First off, Red Mage was never swordsman first. In truth if we're speaking logicly, the casting has always taken the forefront of Red Mage, though always entangled and by a narrow margin. I'm not talking FFXI exclusively here, I'm talking through it's whole history.

Again, we have to keep in mind that nearly every iteration of RDM was in games built around turn-based combat. That's an entirely different animal from MMORPG/live-action combat in terms of design and application. Yes, in turn-based RPGs 9 times out of 10 the best way to use a RDM's turn was to have them cast magic.

That said, Melee is an inseparable part of the class and yes, the meta of FFXI did Red Mage a large disservice. But to stress, THIS IS NOT HAPPENING HERE. It was abundantly clear that a good portion of skill kit comes from adjusting the class's positioning. This would not be needed if it was primarily attacking only from range. To have both a closer, and a distance maker indicates that this class will be diving in and out of close range frequently. So both caster and melee will be important implementation.

I'll disagree. The demo emphasizes range while seemingly treating melee as a thing you do because mechanics rather than uniting both to flow into each other. If we had seen something like, say, melee combo going into insta-cast nuke followed by a hard cast spell followed by repelling shot followed by another spell or Lunge, that paints an entirely different picture (since it'd show that you'll be hitting things with a sword, it somehow allowing you to instacast spells while also having mobility built into the job).

And to be completely fair, attack magic was the MINORITY of that display. The first three skills seemed to be status inflicts of some sort (I'm guessing the first was chainspell. I don't know what the second was, but the third was some sort of restorative buff, by the coloring.) Then we have three melee attacks. The gap close, the attack skill, and the Gap maker. Then we had all of one offensive magic cast, at the very end, which did not even seem to have a cast time.

Based on the demo, I suspect what's going to happen is some aspect of the gameplay will require you to temporarily get in melee range to either empower future spells or make them cast instantly, then getting out of range to do so.

For someone claiming to not be passing judgement, you are clearly jumping the gun, and jumping it hard.

I like to think I'm allowed to develop an opinion based on what info we have available. I can still change my mind if something else surfaces or if I were to see the ability list along with what mechanics are part of the job. I did say that so far I was not impressed, and I'm sticking to that.

Red Mage has always been the versatile combat mage who sports both magic and swords. It has never been exclusively a front-line entity, nor a back line entity and I can see the pains SE has taken to keep that true here. Yes, A Red Mage casts spells, even at a distance, even at close range.

Simply put, the ranged/melee hybrid thing is needlessly convoluted. It's like they were reaching for something to make up, because a guy in melee range blasting fire into enemies' faces at point blank range in between sword swings was apparently not original enough for them.

As I've said, we'll see how this turns out, but I'd be lying if I claimed excitement about what has been shown so far. I still really want to see that ability list.

the whole reason most debate happens is solely because of this reason.

people who say red mage is mainly magic with some physical or some who say red mage was more physical with some magic.

To be fair, this discussion wouldn't be happening if we had specializations per job (instead we'd all be arguing to ensure both caster RDM and melee RDM are balanced with each other). Since we don't, we're obviously going to lean towards our preferences.

[Mimilu]

Please don't become so enamored with your own vision of Red Mage that you deny any other of yourself, other players, and most especially the developers.

90% of the forum needs to take this advice... >w> ♥