@Naoki Yoshida-> Make Samurai a Tank class!

[GMERC]

Not to mention the backwards logic of "there aren't enough tanks, so let's not add something that could help boost those numbers and instead do something that will help lower those numbers. Meanwhile, let's take the largest demographic that has the most variety in jobs available to them and give them even more!"

There aren't conclusive numbers to suggest that introducing Dark Knight as a tank made any significant increase in the number of total tank players.

[Walfan]

There aren't conclusive numbers to suggest that introducing Dark Knight as a tank made any significant increase in the number of total tank players.

2% increase is huge. Not only did the tank population not decrease, it increased.
Did you really expect something like a 10% increase because of DRK ? And if it's "only" 2% percent, even with DRK's popularity, what do you think would have happened without it ?

The goal isn't to totally replace the dps population and a 40% tank population isn't going to happen, nor should it.
If SAM adds two more %, then we would be seeing a steady and healthy increase, far from a dud.

[StarRosie]

2% increase is huge. Not only did the tank population not decrease, it increased.
Did you really expect something like a 10% increase because of DRK ? And if it's "only" 2% percent, even with DRK's popularity, what do you think would have happened without it ?

The goal isn't to totally replace the dps population and a 40% tank population isn't going to happen, nor should it.
If SAM adds two more %, then we would be seeing a steady and healthy increase, far from a dud.

While indeed the 2% increase is huge and a massive success, I do not see any further breakdowns of the 2% statistic. This leaves me a little skeptical about things because we also don't entirely know how the census data is gathered, is it by an active time algorithm or by some other means? Is that 2% only counting NEW tanks or is it counting tanks who took a year off during the last census to play DPS or healer and then returned to playing tanks this year? That is the kind of data we're missing to have a concrete "DRK increased tank population." argument.

While indeed I am sure DRK did to a point, the data does not support this as a solid fact. It sure as heck lays credence to it but without a detailed breakdown of how much of that 2% is entirely new tanks, how much of the 2% went to DRK and data like that, I am sorry, I don't see this as definitive proof that DRK increased tank pop, I'm not saying it didn't, because the data shows it did to a degree and I'll concede that point, But I am saying that I don't think the entirety of that 2% is thanks to DRK. The data just doesn't support that argument.

[GMERC]

While indeed the 2% increase is huge and a massive success, I do not see any further breakdowns of the 2% statistic. This leaves me a little skeptical about things because we also don't entirely know how the census data is gathered, is it by an active time algorithm or by some other means? Is that 2% only counting NEW tanks or is it counting tanks who took a year off during the last census to play DPS or healer and then returned to playing tanks this year? That is the kind of data we're missing to have a concrete "DRK increased tank population." argument.

While indeed I am sure DRK did to a point, the data does not support this as a solid fact. It sure as heck lays credence to it but without a detailed breakdown of how much of that 2% is entirely new tanks, how much of the 2% went to DRK and data like that, I am sorry, I don't see this as definitive proof that DRK increased tank pop, I'm not saying it didn't, because the data shows it did to a degree and I'll concede that point, But I am saying that I don't think the entirety of that 2% is thanks to DRK. The data just doesn't support that argument.

The statistic is literally just "people with the job at 60," not any metric of how much a job is actually played or used in content. I for one would love to see a statistic for, say, the percentage of DRK players who have it as their only tank at 60, but already had, say, PLD at 50 or higher, because I honestly doubt I'm the only player who "switched" tank mains (just as a similar number probably switched to the greatly improved 3.0 WAR).

Doesn't matter, still not an excuse to not introduce new tank jobs. Adding new tank jobs offer multiple benefits even if it doesn't increase the tank population, whereas not adding new ones has nothing but negative effects.

I don't disagree, but i firmly believe that if we're only getting 2 new jobs in Stormblood (which is still possible pending confirmation to the contrary) that they should be DPS. Yes we could use more tanks in the future for the same reason more DPS can't hurt, but Tanks and Healers are in a pretty good spot right now. And if we are to insist on adding new Tank and Healer in Stormblood, we'd be in the same spot two years later when I'd be even more justified in saying "we probably don't need a new tank or healer again" for 5.0

1:1:2 would be ideal, but I kind of doubt not having to develop a new playable race has actually freed up their resources so much that they could release a whole four jobs this time around.

[StarRosie]

The statistic is literally just "people with the job at 60," not any metric of how much a job is actually played or used in content.I for one would love to see a statistic for, say, the percentage of DRK players who have it as their only tank at 60, but already had, say, PLD at 50 or higher, because I honestly doubt I'm the only player who "switched" tank mains (just as a similar number probably switched to the greatly improved 3.0 WAR).

Oh, well, that muddies things even further. One moment, I am gonna go comb over the census even further to gather more data.

Oh I completely agree with you, I'd very much like to know how exactly is that data collected and if I only need to level a tank to be considered one.
I'm mostly going with what we know for now.

Nevertheless, if the data does count active tanks, you can't say DRK wasn't a massive success by being the new most played tank job by far.

I am not saying DRK wasn't a huge success, I believe it was a success but I don't agree with the argument that DRK is the sole purpose for this 2% population raise. That's where I am skeptical and would like more data. I agree that DRK was a big success and a beloved addition, once I finish LvLing WAR, I will be switching over to DRK in order to create an awesome Black Rose cosplay from .Hack!

[Walfan]

The statistic is literally just "people with the job at 60," not any metric of how much a job is actually played or used in content. I for one would love to see a statistic for, say, the percentage of DRK players who have it as their only tank at 60, but already had, say, PLD at 50 or higher, because I honestly doubt I'm the only player who "switched" tank mains (just as a similar number probably switched to the greatly improved 3.0 WAR).

Hmm, is it really just that ? In that case these statistics aren't really useful.
I still think you can say the tank population increased, if more people bothered to level a tank to 60 it seems logicial some of those people would start playing it.

I am not saying DRK wasn't a huge success, I believe it was a success but I don't agree with the argument that DRK is the sole purpose for this 2% population raise. That's where I am skeptical and would like more data. I agree that DRK was a big success and a beloved addition, once I finish LvLing WAR, I will be switching over to DRK in order to create an awesome Black Rose cosplay from .Hack!

Probably not the sole purpose but look at it this way : DRK is a huge success, it's the most played tank and the tank population has probably increased going with what we have.
Even if some tank mains switched jobs with it's release (me included), I seriously doubt every DRK player played a tank before or would have kept playing tank were it not added.
Personally DRK is pretty much the sole reason I got back into the game, I got sick of my PLD even with the few new interesting spells they added in HW and I didn't want to play it at all when I came back some time ago. DRK looked cool and interesting, I leveled it and here I am.

[StarRosie]

Probably not the sole purpose but look at it this way : DRK is a huge success, it's the most played tank and the tank population has probably increased going with what we have.
Even if some tank mains switched jobs with it's release (me included), I seriously doubt every DRK player played a tank before or would have kept playing tank were it not added.
Personally DRK is pretty much the sole reason I got back into the game, I got sick of my PLD even with the few new interesting spells they added in HW and I didn't want to play it at all when I came back some time ago. DRK looked cool and interesting, I leveled it and here I am.

Again, I agree DRK contributed some to the tank pop increase, and indeed was a very large success considering it's numbers. Just an argument was being raised using these numbers that the whole of the tank pop's increase rested on DRK's powerful shoulders. (Though looking back, you were not the one who started that, apologies if it seemed like I attacked you on that point.) I am just making the point that the data does not fully support that argument and without a more detailed breakdown, there is nothing concrete to corroborate that argument.

I think we are running in circles now, both saying DRK is popular and cool! XD So that we agree on and we agree that it helped increase tank pop to a degree. But I am just saying, I don't agree that it was the sole purpose for the tank pop increase. If that clears up my arguments. Anyways, I am gonna be unable to post for a bit so, I'll probably bow out here for now, that and at this point I think the thread has been so utterly derailed from it's topic...we should let someone come in and put the doomtrain back on its tracks.

[Shippuu]

Hmm, is it really just that ? In that case these statistics aren't really useful.
I still think you can say the tank population increased, if more people bothered to level a tank to 60 it seems logicial some of those people would start playing it.

The overall statistic of Tank/DPS/Healer from the recent census didn't take into account the levels, so the 2% increase was tanks as a whole at 21%.

The later chart showing only level 60's showed tanks as 23% of Level 60's. So the level 60 tank % is higher than the overall tank %. It's still a good thing even if only existing tank players simply leveled DRK, that's still a large number of people revitalizing leveling content.

Probably not the sole purpose but look at it this way : DRK is a huge success, it's the most played tank and the tank population has probably increased going with what we have.
Even if some tank mains switched jobs with it's release (me included), I seriously doubt every DRK player played a tank before or would have kept playing tank were it not added.
Personally DRK is pretty much the sole reason I got back into the game, I got sick of my PLD even with the few new interesting spells they added in HW and I didn't want to play it at all when I came back some time ago. DRK looked cool and interesting, I leveled it and here I am.

It's definitely a success, DRK is the most played tank despite not actually being the best tank in the game which is very telling. One would expect Warrior to be the most played given it's reputation as clearly being the best Tank, but DRK is higher.

We have to also take into consideration that DRK could have acted as a "gateway tank". Even if someone tried DRK and didn't like DRK specifically, it at least exposed them to tanking and some may have then gone on to try the other tanks and potentially taken them to level 60 as well. Without literally polling a mass amount of players there's no way to get accurate data on if this was the case and by how much unfortunately.

[Shippuu]

I don't disagree, but i firmly believe that if we're only getting 2 new jobs in Stormblood (which is still possible pending confirmation to the contrary) that they should be DPS. Yes we could use more tanks in the future for the same reason more DPS can't hurt, but Tanks and Healers are in a pretty good spot right now. And if we are to insist on adding new Tank and Healer in Stormblood, we'd be in the same spot two years later when I'd be even more justified in saying "we probably don't need a new tank or healer again" for 5.0

I simply cannot fathom the flawed logic of saying that "Tanks are in a good spot right now, so extra DPS is the way to go." How exactly are DPS not in a good spot either? If tanks don't need new jobs then neither do DPS. And to say that only adding DPS "can't hurt" is ignoring the evidence that it absolutely will. We've seen what happened when NIN came out, and while it normalized after a time, it's initial month release was ridiculous and hardly something you want for your newly released expansion. NIN's release was bad enough when it was all old content, releasing only DPS jobs during a new expansion filled with new dungeons and content is a terrible idea. If they're only adding 2 new jobs (doubtful at this point) then it absolutely should not be two DPS of all things. At least one of the 2 jobs must be a Healer or a Tank.

There's a reason something like WoW has never released a new job that couldn't be a tank afterall, and SE definitely looks at Blizzard when it comes to things regarding FFXIV.

1:1:2 would be ideal, but I kind of doubt not having to develop a new playable race has actually freed up their resources so much that they could release a whole four jobs this time around.

If they're going with 1:1:2, then that still means 3 jobs this expansion, one for each role. We have 3 tanks, 3 healers, and 7 DPS. So if the overall ratio is to be exactly what you say, that means we need 1 tank, 1 healer, and 1 DPS to round it out. 4:4:8 (i.e. 1:1:2)

[Walfan]

***

Oh I completely agree with you, I'd very much like to know how exactly is that data collected and if I only need to level a tank to be considered one.
I'm mostly going with what we know for now.

Nevertheless, if the data does count active tanks, you can't say DRK wasn't a massive success by being the new most played tank job by far.