Have we moved to an age where taking hate as a dps = bad dps instead of bad tank?

[CookieMonsta]

So I've had multiple instances where I've seen dps getting told off for taking hate instead of the tank getting told off for losing hate.

I was in A12 as BLM and I was about to take hate off the DRK tanking without grit. So I said "put tank stance on pls". Then the party jumped on me saying "you use quelling strikes".

Then a similar thing happened when I was in a dungeon, a ninja took hate off the PLD (again who was in sword oath), and died, he complained at the tank to keep hate and got berated for not learning to use shadewalker.

So is this a thing now? Is it the dps's fault if the tank loses hate?

If Quelling Strikes was available and you didn't use it resulting in aggro, it was your fault. Likewise for Shadewalker.
If no tools were available and you took aggro, it was the tank's fault.

[Kaitoo]

Its both

i run in alot of tanks who were incapaple of holding aggro properly


however, things like elusive jump doenst exist for nothing, so yeah. Now there also a lot of DPS check in this game, so optimally dps should not use this skills so often.

I would say 70%/30% tanks fault

[Leadleaf]

I don't know where the "Have we moved to an age" part has come from as plenty of bards were yelled at since 2.0 for doing their erry-cooldown sans quelling opener on titan or whatever.

It's DF, there's going to be large gaps in people's experience, dps/enmity output and gear, just keep quelling on cooldown and when you pull threat still, that tank won't have anything else to fall back on.

[Ilan]

Its both

i run in alot of tanks who were incapaple of holding aggro properly


however, things like elusive jump doenst exist for nothing, so yeah. Now there also a lot of DPS check in this game, so optimally dps should not use this skills so often.

I would say 70%/30% tanks fault

Elusive jump is something completly different. Other classes don't lose dps if they use their emnity reducing skills and they should use them. Best choice for dragoon is a ninja in party who puts smokescreen on you if you get to close. But thats something that you can't expect in DF and i would say not even in PF.

If a tank loses hate when these skills are used properly, he shouldn't go out of tank stance anyway because he is undergeared or not capable of playing a tank properly. But these tanks where not the topic for me.

[Zojha]

Elusive jump is something completly different. Other classes don't lose dps if they use their emnity reducing skills and they should use them.

It's not a particularly big DPS loss if you use Spineshatter Dive or Dragonfire Dive right after, because you'll be right back at the target and DRGs "normal" GCD should allow for double OGCD usage within a GCD window.

I mean, you can also say that quelling strikes on BLM is a DPS loss because the 0,5 second animation lock of quelling are 0,5 seconds you aren't casting Fire/Ice. That's true - but not a significant loss.

[Canadane]

Pre-2.0, enmity was a two player game. It's always been on both the tank to generate enmity and the dps to mitigate their own. To the point where there was enmity materia people did use at times.

Things changed greatly with 2.0's release. Tanking was very streamlined and made extraordinarily simple. Other than some low level issues, enmity shouldn't have been an problem for any tank that knew their role.

Fast forward to late 2.x (if not earlier) and it's all about pushing dps from everyone, including sacrificing safety for it so as long as you didn't die in the process. Tanks not using their tank stance only was further emphasized with their dps stances (which made tanking fun and interesting again imo). So in the interest of high DPS you are generally sacrificing a bit of enmity. This is especially prevalent on Dark Knight who doesn't have enmity abilities in their DPS rotation.

So we've come full circle. But rather thank lack of enmity on the tank in general, we're at a point where tanks are just hefty DD's and we're back to the point where enmity reduction is important on the DPS role again.

Of course, and tank that wanted to will never lose enmity to an equally geared DPS, but just remember in the interest of both the tank and the party, high enmity leads aren't a high priority.


tl;dr: Quelling doesn't lower your damage, use it if needed.

[Ilan]

It's not a particularly big DPS loss if you use Spineshatter Dive or Dragonfire Dive right after, because you'll be right back at the target and DRGs "normal" GCD should allow for double OGCD usage within a GCD window.

I mean, you can also say that quelling strikes on BLM is a DPS loss because the 0,5 second animation lock of quelling are 0,5 seconds you aren't casting Fire/Ice. That's true - but not a significant loss.

And if you don't have the other jumps ready you have to run forward again. We could discuss over that for a long time and if you really compare that to quelling on blm we could also start to discuss why a tank should start tanking in tank stance anyway because its a huge dps loss but we all know the answer to that so its useless to discuss that.

[Only1zbro]

Enmity is 100% the tank's problem, both on pull and throughout any fight. Sure, DPS should use enmity-reducing skills if they have them, but they should never ever slow/stop DPSing to let a tank get an enmity lead. It's still the tank's fault if they lose aggro to a DPS that didn't pop Quelling.

If you get into a static group and the BLM *for example* isn't using quelling in an opening rotation and consistently bursts aggro in the first one or two gcd's, they're not going to be looking at the tank to make a change in opening rotation, guaranteed. A dps with quelling doesn't falter in their dps rotation like a tank would having to take aggro back off someone that shouldn't have it in the first place because they have tools available. "Not my problem" isn't a viable answer to your static.

[Alistaire]

We're always in an age where people who don't know what they're talking about can blame whoever they want.

[TheMax1087]

It'll still be all on the tank as long as monks have no emnity dump IMO.