Have we moved to an age where taking hate as a dps = bad dps instead of bad tank?

[Cabalabob]

In the end as some people are saying, it comes down to dps, quelling strikes and the like are oGCD abilities that have no negative impact on your dps while reducing your enmity so the tank can use their dps combos more and stay out of tank stance for more dps. If you don't use your enmity control, you are gaining no positives from it and the tank has to go into tank stance which is -15-20% dps off the bat, and use their aggro combo which for, at least PLD and DRK, is a further dps loss.

Almost everyone has enmity control at this point, all ranged have quelling strikes, ninja has shadewalker and smoke bombs, whm and ast have shroud and luminous aether.

Only exceptions are MNK, who is kind of the odd duck in this game having very little party synergy. Ninjas can smoke bomb them though if you have one with you. DRGs, who only have elusive jump which is kind of clunky as an enmity dump but they can usually work it in (and of course they have the ultimate enmity control of dying constantly). And SCHs who rarely get that high on enmity in the first place.

Well aware of this but in my experience the blood price ability is also more than capable of recovering mana lost. Is it not so commonly used in lvl 60 dungeons?

grit is a -20% damage dealt reduction as well as damage received and you lose blood weapon which means less MP which means less dark arts which means even less dps. So going into grit is a huge kick in the dps for DRK, DRKs tank stance is probably the most dps harmful of all of them.

And in the OP's example of A12 DRK doesn't even need the extra mitigation as they can dark mind almost every punishing heat as well as put up delerium and reprisal. So grit would be purely for extra aggro meaning dps using enmity control skills would only result in more dps.

[Lambdafish]

So is this a thing now? Is it the dps's fault if the tank loses hate?

Using this as a statement forgoes any context whatsoever. Can it be the DPS's fault? yes absolutely. Can it be the tanks fault? absolutely. Can mechanics be a contributing factor? absolutely. Can all of the above happen at the same time to cause issues to occur? absolutely.

The key is not to throw toys out of the pram and point fingers, but rather work out which aspect of the team is causing issues (it can be something really minor like a single parse of a rotation being off, or even crits being factored in) and improve from there as a team.

In this case it is quite clear that the party is dumb and the DRK should be MTing in grit (honestly I blame the OT more than you for not being more observant of the MT), but as a rule of thumb, you are equally accountable for hate management as the tank is (so yes, make a habit of using quelling strikes).

[ShaneDawn]

If they don't use Quelling Strikes/Shadewalker and get aggro because of that the DPS are most likely bad.

If the tank loses aggro even when the DPS uses their aggro mitigations, the tank is most likely bad and/or undergeared in comparison to the DPS.

A part of being a good player is using your class toolkit properly. Not using aggro mitigators on a DPS class with a bursty opener shows lack of knowledge and/or lack of concern towards others. I could probably rip off aggro against most tanks during pull on my Bard if I wanted to, but I don't because I can press one button to activate Quelling Strikes.

Same goes for tanks of course. They should know how to correctly establish strong initial aggro and keep watch of the enmity list during fight. However, a fully buffed, unmitigated BLM/BRD/whatever opener on a heavily geared DPS class is and should not be a norm tanks needs to play around. If they lose aggro because they start the fight in damage stance? Yeah, the shame is on them.

I don't think any decent player will not use Quelling Strikes because someone might be ahead of them in the enmity list... that line of thinking is really petty, and if the fight lasts at least a minute they'll probably end up close to their "natural" position in the enmity list anyways.

[Yeol]

Enmity =/= good dps.
You can find healers very high on the enmity bar by healing only.

A good dps will try to lower their enmity generation as much as they can. Because they want go ham on target without holding back or worry about stealing aggro from tank.
If they do use their abilities and still get hate then it's the tanks fault not them.

So is this a thing now? Is it the dps's fault if the tank loses hate?

Many have answered this already and they gave very good answers

[randysquirrel]

No we are not "moving" to an age where dps should be using their aggro control; this has always been the case.

A good dps will use whatever aggro reducing abilities they have, a bad dps won't. If you don't, a good tank will still be able to hold aggro off you, but at the cost of having to use more aggro combo/stance, which is a damage loss for them, compensating for the dps's poor play.

A bad tank is one that cannot hold hate even when all the dps are using their aggro reducing abilities

[Ilan]

Well aware of this but in my experience the blood price ability is also more than capable of recovering mana lost. Is it not so commonly used in lvl 60 dungeons?

Its pretty useless on bosses but of cause you use it in grit on masspulls.

[OoglieBooglie]

I generally use quelling strikes on every boss except for the 24 man bosses. I make a mini-game out of seeing if i can pull hate in those, just to make it more interesting. That said, I don't complain when I lose hate during that because I've got a decent ilvl, I'm going ham during my opener, and I'm kinda doing it on purpose then. Muahaha.

[Launched]

Enmity is 100% the tank's problem, both on pull and throughout any fight. Sure, DPS should use enmity-reducing skills if they have them, but they should never ever slow/stop DPSing to let a tank get an enmity lead. It's still the tank's fault if they lose aggro to a DPS that didn't pop Quelling.

[Astral145]

No such thing as a bad damage dealer... Here me out

If the dps is pulling high numbers and is pulling hate from the tank then the tank is doing something wrong. Check to see if the tank is in TANK STANCE. If in tank stance make sure the tank is actively using the right rotations and aoe skills (if needed on large pulls). If DD's in the group are on different targets make sure the tank is actively rotating between targets and using aoe skills. Also check to see if the tank is up to par on gear. If the tank is using a substantial lower item level weapon chances are the DD's will pull the hate right from under the tanks butt.

In all honesty DD's shouldn't be pulling hate at all bc of damage but unfortunately the devs set it this way. So the tank needs to be on top of their game if the DD's are over geared and pulling high damage numbers.

Now if the DD's are purposely going a ahead and pulling mobs then in all honesty its the DD's fault. A DD should not take the first hit at all for anyreason unless mechanics in a boss fight requires the DD's to pull mobs and place them in certain locations... other than that a DD should not be hitting any mobs or boss at the start of a fight. The tank will have to work twice as hard to get the hate off the DD.

[Atoli]

It is always the fault of everyone to not use their full toolset if it would make things faster and smoother.
If you pull hate off the tank despite using Quelling Strikes, it's fine to complain to the tank.
If you pull hate off without ever doing anything to lower your own enmity, the party getting angry at you is completely valid.