Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

[Brian_]

Funny, because this :

was never edited...

When I posted my reply that didn't have quotes, I didn't quote anything because you only wrote a single paragraph. After refreshing the page, two more quotes popped up and I didn't reply to those until my next post.

Yes, you do. You just have to stop doing facerolling dungeons. Seriously, "raid" is a pretty word for just saying "8-man dungeon".

Except in this game, the terms raid and dungeon are used to differentiate between 8 man content and 4 man content. We don't say dungeon and expect someone to correlate that with 8 man content. 8 man content is trial / raid content. 4 man content will not teach a tank how to OT nor will it teach a tank how to tank swap correctly. We are all familiar with those Defiance / Grit / ShO OTs in 24-man content that didn't know better. That's what happens when you don't teach someone how to raid.

Great and precise explanation (Honestly). But, let me ask you something, if you stayed in Defiance, would you use your CD differently ? For the sixth and seven busters, would you refrain from using Vengeance ?

No, I would still use my CDs as there is nothing else to use them on for one CD cycle. That's what I mean when I say you have a surplus of mitigation. Saving it wouldn't do anything but be a complete waste. I know this because I push my DPS and doing so requires that I know exactly when I will have my CDs.

So, out of seven TB, you took five out of Defiance, yet you think it's better for healers to heal than skipping one, or maybe two further TB that would hit you in Defiance ? I'd say they have much more healing to do in your configuration.

It doesn't matter that you need more healing because that's what they're doing anyways. Healing. Regardless of if you're in tank stance or not, they can't afford to not top you off because the TB hits hard and hits often. Even if it takes them another cast of healing, they're not losing the opportunity to Cleric Stance and DPS.

Yeah, sure my delusions...

And...

Toooooooooootally not a player based meta...totally.

...right on queue. Yoshida just flat out said that it was by their design that ACC works the way it does. How is that a player driven meta? He flat out says that they tuned content so early clear groups have no choice but to stack ACC to push DPS. It's convenient you just completely deleted that part, huh?

I don't want SE change tanks to be turtles.

My god... LOL. You do realize that you began this argument by saying that tanks needed to change because some random PLD got carried through A11N while only spamming RoH and you didn't think it was right the content didn't have a hard tank check to gate him until he learned how to play by your standards.



Ridiculous.

[Sarcatica]

I am going to pull logs for tank stance vs DPS stance comparison.

A9S
3:57 https://www.fflogs.com/reports/YG2Pr...e=damage-taken
5:51 https://www.fflogs.com/reports/DJn9h...e=damage-taken

DPS comparison: 1840 VS 1080
Damage Taken Per Sec for MT comparison: 2093 VS 1873
Healing Per Sec comparison: 3970.1 VS 3882
Healing on MT comparison: 338.6k VS 509.5k from Main Healer. Excluding SCH healing because my SCH heals the group mostly, only a few Adlos to me.
Overheal overall comparison: 20.49% VS 39.77%

So let's see again. I took more damage without Grit, that's for sure. I took 320 DTPS more overall, that's about 17% more damage taken. BUT, overall I did 760 more DPS, that's 70% more DPS. Effectively I trade 17% damage taken for 70% DPS. Does it worth, you might ask. Let's see how much the healers have to heal me. 3:57 log features me taking 338.6k effective damage that was healed, compare that to 5:51 log, it's about 1.5 ratio for both the time and effective damage taken. In short, healing is barely affected while efficiency on DPS and execution rise up tremendously. This also achieved much lower overheal which all healers would want. So in the end, is it worth? Yes, for sure.

EDIT: note that this requires good players to execute, so that's where your skillgap is showing by far. Don't be a jerk to advocate full DPS mode for tanks eitherbecause chances is you will die from that, mostly because you don't know how to manage your CDs well. It's all about balancing your toolkit and understanding how much you can push your limit. And even then, this parse is well below the fastest speedrun in FFlogs.

Late edit: I know this isn't a fair comparison due to difference in power for all players, and also me supposedly being the only variance that affects the healer's healing and DPS. You are free to interpret whatever you like from this because I was just trying to make a point.

[Reynhart]

Except in this game, the terms raid and dungeon are used to differentiate between 8 man content and 4 man content.

So I guess Castle Meridianum and Praetorum are raids, then...and since T5, T9, T13, A4, A8 and A12 are only arena fights against one boss, every trial could be called a raid, too...

No, I would still use my CDs as there is nothing else to use them on for one CD cycle. That's what I mean when I say you have a surplus of mitigation. Saving it wouldn't do anything but be a complete waste. I know this because I push my DPS and doing so requires that I know exactly when I will have my CDs.

So, basically, it wouldn't change how you'd spend your CD...only that you take more damage, which suddenly becomes the responsibility of your healer.

Regardless of if you're in tank stance or not, they can't afford to not top you off because the TB hits hard and hits often. Even if it takes them another cast of healing, they're not losing the opportunity to Cleric Stance and DPS.

So, no combination of tank mitigation/healer healing power can actually reduce the required number of cast ?

Yoshida just flat out said that it was by their design that ACC works the way it does. How is that a player driven meta? He flat out says that they tuned content so early clear groups have no choice but to stack ACC to push DPS. It's convenient you just completely deleted that part, huh?

As convenient as you ignoring how many time he said that it was the team choices

My god... LOL. You do realize that you began this argument by saying that tanks needed to change because some random PLD got carried through A11N while only spamming RoH and you didn't think it was right the content didn't have a hard tank check to gate him until he learned how to play by your standards.

Yeah, of course it started with that...

Contrary to other tanks, this one wouldn't have a DPS mode, but instead have two tank stances: Physical Shield and Magical Shield (Yes, these names arent't very sexy, but at least, they're obvious).

As for solo tanking, yes, it's a viable answer. Consider a fight were tankbusters appears very often. With a "usual" two tanks setup, you'd have to swap during the fight to let CD timers refresh. With this tank, you wouldn't need to. It's a different strat for a different job, but it doesn't prevent "any tanks setup to work on any content". For example, even if the Mystic Knight could solo tank the current Sophia EX, it wouldn't make other tanks suddenly unable to clear it in a usual setup.

The question is still "Why ?". Why do all tanks automatically have to follow the exact same meta ?

No. In my vision, there is room for a viable turtle approach alongside a more aggressive tanking. Since we have three tanks, it wouldn't be that difficult to target a mixed tank playerbase.

As for the player I mentioned, you've actually acknowledged that it was really bad and that PvE progression model is bad...

I'm not fine with it. I've voiced my criticism of SE's PvE progression model in more relevant topics.

...then the next post, suddenly, the difficulty disbtribution is fine ? Since you like your precise naming, Alex Normal is a raid it should teach you how to raid. And spamming RoH is a very bad way to play PLD at lvl 60. It's absurd to wait for Alex Savage to teach such a basic concept.

On another topic, let's suppose you have a party with four BLM, that still think transposing is a way of switching between Fire and Ice, and that Enochian is useless. Even in normal raid, such a team wouldn't be able to win the fight with such a low DPS. Bad tanks shouldn't have that kind of free pass.

[aleph_null]

General's might does a tank buster every few seconds, even if you go into tank stance for the whole period the extra mitigation probably won't buy your healers much time to dps. Even in full defiance you can only IB 1 out of 2-3 tank busters, so I don't think your healers' dps would be able to outweigh the personal dps you gain from stance dancing.

As for your example with 4 blms, that's not a fair comparison. You're comparing a party carrying 1 bad pld vs a party carrying 4 bad blms.

[Reynhart]

As for your example with 4 blms, that's not a fair comparison. You're comparing a party carrying 1 bad pld vs a party carrying 4 bad blms.

Ok, 4 BLM is a bit too much. But I'm pretty sure most people would say that carrying even BLM is unacceptable.

And, on fights in Gordias or Midas, maybe even one such BLM would be enough DPS loss to hit enrage, while I'm not really sure a PLD only spamming RoH would change much as long as the 4 DPS are good.

Another option, totally unrelated to this topic, would be to make SSS a real requirement to enter the corresponding content. This way, you'd still have some bad tanks, but not so far as too ignore even the most basic rotation.

So in the end, is it worth? Yes, for sure.

Well, of course it is, since that's the actual meta. Does it mean that it's the only concept that should be viable ? Couldn't you have a tank that reduces far than 17% damage by turtling ? And does having such a tank means that suddenly, every tank should follow this new meta ?

[aleph_null]

It's not a matter of acceptable or not, but it's possible to carry 1-2 bad dps if we're talking about normal mode. I often end up in the top 3 when I parse a normal alex run despite being a tank, so that means there are at least two underperforming dps in those parties.

[Reynhart]

It's not a matter of acceptable or not, but it's possible to carry 1-2 bad dps if we're talking about normal mode.

That's exactly what I think shouldn't happen. Of course, I'm not talking about not being able to "carry" someone would only do "slightly less than optimal", but someone doing "blatantly obviously bad without needing a parser to tell what's wrong".

For DPS, it's kind of easy to set. You put some DPS checks, and even personal DPS check so that someone could not compensate for you. But how would you do that for a tank ? If your DPS are great, your contribution is actually not that important, so you're easy to carry. The only thing where tank are on their own is generating enmity and surviving...which are both trivial before Savage.

[whiskeybravo]

I am going to pull logs for tank stance vs DPS stance comparison.

That's really interesting and definitely shows the values of aggressive tanking. The only controversial (not the best word for this I can think of at the moment) aspect would be the overhealing. I could see where the healer might be used to having to heal you more at certain spots due to your normal aggressive tanking, but also the fact that if you are taking less damage the heal is still the same. EI, if 1 cure 2 normally gets you from say, 70% health to 100% health, now you're in tank stance and only at 80% HP, so when you take that cure 2 10% now counts as an overheal. Something like that anyways... But overall it's pretty damning evidence, dps vs dtps most notably.

[DaulBan]

...then the next post, suddenly, the difficulty disbtribution is fine ? Since you like your precise naming, Alex Normal is a raid it should teach you how to raid. And spamming RoH is a very bad way to play PLD at lvl 60. It's absurd to wait for Alex Savage to teach such a basic concept.

On another topic, let's suppose you have a party with four BLM, that still think transposing is a way of switching between Fire and Ice, and that Enochian is useless. Even in normal raid, such a team wouldn't be able to win the fight with such a low DPS. Bad tanks shouldn't have that kind of free pass.

I think the issue with Alex Normal not teaching people how to raid is less to do with the fact that it's not punishing enough, so much as the fact that there isn't enough content to spread the difficulty curve though.


All of Alexander (Gordias, Midas, Creator) needs to be clearable by anyone on the 'Normal Level'. It's the new base content, slightly more tricky than a Dungeon but easily clearable. It's what anyone and their grandma can do and it's designed that way because it gives us more to do than roulettes.

That design choice makes sense because of how few people actually Raid, it probably makes much more sense to SE to have the four current floors be easy and just a taste of the harder 8-man content but still have it be pretty easy than to create some sort of wall. To learn, you have to fail, and failing is frustrating. Failing with friends is frustrating, failing with pugs even more. To keep people happy they need the Alex content to be easy...

Unfortunately, the only other avenue they have for teaching people savage are EX Primals. Sophia is probably the best primal to learn as a tank right now, to be honest. Regular tank busters, tank swaps that are punishing but possible to live through, with a fairly minimal HP floor to survive with minimal mitigation. If they had more content available they might be able to do as you say and create a better slope to Savage but to be honest I'd rather have the current system in place with more to do as a casual than the old Coil system of Dungeons or the difficult raids.

[shao32]

tank stance vs DPS stance comparison.

nice one, 17% trade defense for 70% more dps, this is a good example to make you think why whe have tank stance, for agro? just the first 10 seconds, for extra mitigation? there is no much stuff on the game that a rampath and adloquium dont solve alone, for the damage penalitation? yeah sure.

this is my first concern about tanks, on WAR dont matter much bcs excep the combos and ogc all job skills avoid damage penalitaton, but on PLD and DRK where we are not desing to tank stance.... i hope for a good rework of shield/ grit /defiance, to make our TANK MODE made for tank be mandatory on MT, in other words a fair trade off and not a 17%-70%, meaby remove damage penalty and ajust the potency of all skills idk but something, make our tanking skills more usefull that just a simple raw mitigation and situational use, and how know make our tank stance improve our defensives tools.

Eh, all these discussions are useless. Let's just say that good tanks will be able to adjust to whatever SE has in mind for 4.0 and beyond. Amen to that.

and yeah amen for that, tank to the end.