Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

[Reynhart]

When you ninja edit your posts I need time to read it and respond.

Funny, because this :

Ok, so you have a boss fight with a tankbuster every 50-60 seconds...tell me how stance dancing make your CD management "more precise" for that.

was never edited...

You thought that transitioning tanks from dungeon content straight into hard raid content was a stairway. That's not how it works. I'll repeat myself again. You don't teach a tank how to raid by teaching them how to run a dungeon.

Yes, you do. You just have to stop doing facerolling dungeons. Seriously, "raid" is a pretty word for just saying "8-man dungeon".

For the first buster I still have Raw Intuition rolling from the triple FC I used to help kill the Wing adds (I delay the RI until the end of the Berserk window in order to have it carry over to the Might add). For the second buster, I stay in Deliverance and use Foresight and put up Path. Before the third buster, Foresight is still running and I put up Conva to help buff the Adlo shield I get and help my healer with the recovery healing after the hit. Bloodbath is also off CD here so I throw that in. For the fourth buster I swap to Defiance and Unchained to sustain my DPS and rely on the healing and health buff from Defiance paired with Conva. For the fifth buster I use Thrill of Battle. For the sixth buster I dance back to Deliverance and use Vengeance. Vengeance + Thrill which is still up is enough eHP to make Defiance uneeded. For the seventh buster Vengeance is still running.

Great and precise explanation (Honestly). But, let me ask you something, if you stayed in Defiance, would you use your CD differently ? For the sixth and seven busters, would you refrain from using Vengeance ?

The sooner we kill the add and the less ramping tank busters we get, the happier my healers will be.

So, out of seven TB, you took five out of Defiance, yet you think it's better for healers to heal than skipping one, or maybe two further TB that would hit you in Defiance ? I'd say they have much more healing to do in your configuration.

Yeah, sure my delusions...

Interviewer: You mentioned that healers will no longer need to worry about accuracy in instanced dungeons. Will this have any impact on raids?

Yoshida: It won't change. Raids are intended to be high difficulty, so if you want to rely on attack-based actions, the thought is that you'll need to stack accuracy.

Interviewer: Since the damage output of healers isn't connected with the clear conditions set for the raid, the idea is that you have to put on certain equipment if you want to focus on attacking.

Yoshida: If attacks would hit regardless of accuracy, things would lean towards healers feeling that they need to attack rather than having a choice. But as it is, if you're aiming for an early clear and the healer isn't putting out DPS, of course you won't be able to beat the boss. If the team decides to make the choice that the healer should be doing damage, the idea is that they will need to reduce their healing performance to gain accuracy.

Toooooooooootally not a player based meta...totally.

Why are you so adamant about having SE change tanks to be turtles? Did 2.x give any challenge to tanks to be "useful"?

I don't want SE change tanks to be turtles. I want them to make one turtle for players who like this kind of tanking, and provides challenges to them too. The game is still young and if they keep relyng on only one type of stategy, they'll end into a corner really fast.

I never said that pushing DPS was not a challenge...

[Brian_]

Funny, because this :

was never edited...

When I posted my reply that didn't have quotes, I didn't quote anything because you only wrote a single paragraph. After refreshing the page, two more quotes popped up and I didn't reply to those until my next post.

Yes, you do. You just have to stop doing facerolling dungeons. Seriously, "raid" is a pretty word for just saying "8-man dungeon".

Except in this game, the terms raid and dungeon are used to differentiate between 8 man content and 4 man content. We don't say dungeon and expect someone to correlate that with 8 man content. 8 man content is trial / raid content. 4 man content will not teach a tank how to OT nor will it teach a tank how to tank swap correctly. We are all familiar with those Defiance / Grit / ShO OTs in 24-man content that didn't know better. That's what happens when you don't teach someone how to raid.

Great and precise explanation (Honestly). But, let me ask you something, if you stayed in Defiance, would you use your CD differently ? For the sixth and seven busters, would you refrain from using Vengeance ?

No, I would still use my CDs as there is nothing else to use them on for one CD cycle. That's what I mean when I say you have a surplus of mitigation. Saving it wouldn't do anything but be a complete waste. I know this because I push my DPS and doing so requires that I know exactly when I will have my CDs.

So, out of seven TB, you took five out of Defiance, yet you think it's better for healers to heal than skipping one, or maybe two further TB that would hit you in Defiance ? I'd say they have much more healing to do in your configuration.

It doesn't matter that you need more healing because that's what they're doing anyways. Healing. Regardless of if you're in tank stance or not, they can't afford to not top you off because the TB hits hard and hits often. Even if it takes them another cast of healing, they're not losing the opportunity to Cleric Stance and DPS.

Yeah, sure my delusions...

And...

Toooooooooootally not a player based meta...totally.

...right on queue. Yoshida just flat out said that it was by their design that ACC works the way it does. How is that a player driven meta? He flat out says that they tuned content so early clear groups have no choice but to stack ACC to push DPS. It's convenient you just completely deleted that part, huh?

I don't want SE change tanks to be turtles.

My god... LOL. You do realize that you began this argument by saying that tanks needed to change because some random PLD got carried through A11N while only spamming RoH and you didn't think it was right the content didn't have a hard tank check to gate him until he learned how to play by your standards.



Ridiculous.

[Reynhart]

Except in this game, the terms raid and dungeon are used to differentiate between 8 man content and 4 man content.

So I guess Castle Meridianum and Praetorum are raids, then...and since T5, T9, T13, A4, A8 and A12 are only arena fights against one boss, every trial could be called a raid, too...

No, I would still use my CDs as there is nothing else to use them on for one CD cycle. That's what I mean when I say you have a surplus of mitigation. Saving it wouldn't do anything but be a complete waste. I know this because I push my DPS and doing so requires that I know exactly when I will have my CDs.

So, basically, it wouldn't change how you'd spend your CD...only that you take more damage, which suddenly becomes the responsibility of your healer.

Regardless of if you're in tank stance or not, they can't afford to not top you off because the TB hits hard and hits often. Even if it takes them another cast of healing, they're not losing the opportunity to Cleric Stance and DPS.

So, no combination of tank mitigation/healer healing power can actually reduce the required number of cast ?

Yoshida just flat out said that it was by their design that ACC works the way it does. How is that a player driven meta? He flat out says that they tuned content so early clear groups have no choice but to stack ACC to push DPS. It's convenient you just completely deleted that part, huh?

As convenient as you ignoring how many time he said that it was the team choices

My god... LOL. You do realize that you began this argument by saying that tanks needed to change because some random PLD got carried through A11N while only spamming RoH and you didn't think it was right the content didn't have a hard tank check to gate him until he learned how to play by your standards.

Yeah, of course it started with that...

Contrary to other tanks, this one wouldn't have a DPS mode, but instead have two tank stances: Physical Shield and Magical Shield (Yes, these names arent't very sexy, but at least, they're obvious).

As for solo tanking, yes, it's a viable answer. Consider a fight were tankbusters appears very often. With a "usual" two tanks setup, you'd have to swap during the fight to let CD timers refresh. With this tank, you wouldn't need to. It's a different strat for a different job, but it doesn't prevent "any tanks setup to work on any content". For example, even if the Mystic Knight could solo tank the current Sophia EX, it wouldn't make other tanks suddenly unable to clear it in a usual setup.

The question is still "Why ?". Why do all tanks automatically have to follow the exact same meta ?

No. In my vision, there is room for a viable turtle approach alongside a more aggressive tanking. Since we have three tanks, it wouldn't be that difficult to target a mixed tank playerbase.

As for the player I mentioned, you've actually acknowledged that it was really bad and that PvE progression model is bad...

I'm not fine with it. I've voiced my criticism of SE's PvE progression model in more relevant topics.

...then the next post, suddenly, the difficulty disbtribution is fine ? Since you like your precise naming, Alex Normal is a raid it should teach you how to raid. And spamming RoH is a very bad way to play PLD at lvl 60. It's absurd to wait for Alex Savage to teach such a basic concept.

On another topic, let's suppose you have a party with four BLM, that still think transposing is a way of switching between Fire and Ice, and that Enochian is useless. Even in normal raid, such a team wouldn't be able to win the fight with such a low DPS. Bad tanks shouldn't have that kind of free pass.

[DaulBan]

...then the next post, suddenly, the difficulty disbtribution is fine ? Since you like your precise naming, Alex Normal is a raid it should teach you how to raid. And spamming RoH is a very bad way to play PLD at lvl 60. It's absurd to wait for Alex Savage to teach such a basic concept.

On another topic, let's suppose you have a party with four BLM, that still think transposing is a way of switching between Fire and Ice, and that Enochian is useless. Even in normal raid, such a team wouldn't be able to win the fight with such a low DPS. Bad tanks shouldn't have that kind of free pass.

I think the issue with Alex Normal not teaching people how to raid is less to do with the fact that it's not punishing enough, so much as the fact that there isn't enough content to spread the difficulty curve though.


All of Alexander (Gordias, Midas, Creator) needs to be clearable by anyone on the 'Normal Level'. It's the new base content, slightly more tricky than a Dungeon but easily clearable. It's what anyone and their grandma can do and it's designed that way because it gives us more to do than roulettes.

That design choice makes sense because of how few people actually Raid, it probably makes much more sense to SE to have the four current floors be easy and just a taste of the harder 8-man content but still have it be pretty easy than to create some sort of wall. To learn, you have to fail, and failing is frustrating. Failing with friends is frustrating, failing with pugs even more. To keep people happy they need the Alex content to be easy...

Unfortunately, the only other avenue they have for teaching people savage are EX Primals. Sophia is probably the best primal to learn as a tank right now, to be honest. Regular tank busters, tank swaps that are punishing but possible to live through, with a fairly minimal HP floor to survive with minimal mitigation. If they had more content available they might be able to do as you say and create a better slope to Savage but to be honest I'd rather have the current system in place with more to do as a casual than the old Coil system of Dungeons or the difficult raids.

[Reynhart]

I think the issue with Alex Normal not teaching people how to raid is less to do with the fact that it's not punishing enough, so much as the fact that there isn't enough content to spread the difficulty curve though.

But unless they create more content (Which they kind of hinted to at Fanfest, and that would probably displease hardcore raiders...), it means building the learning curve throughout dungeons and primals.

All of Alexander (Gordias, Midas, Creator) needs to be clearable by anyone on the 'Normal Level'.

There's "anyone" and "anyone". The less you'll ask to your players, the less they'll do and the less they'll try harder content...requiring a slight effort is not inconceivable.

That design choice makes sense because of how few people actually Raid

But being able to clear Alex Normal with almost no effort doesn't prepare you to go into Savage.

Sophia is probably the best primal to learn as a tank right now, to be honest. Regular tank busters, tank swaps that are punishing but possible to live through, with a fairly minimal HP floor to survive with minimal mitigation.

Yes, Sophia EX is fun, with a bit of RNG, even though the RNG is mostly dependent of what you skip.

[Brian_]

So I guess Castle Meridianum and Praetorum are raids, then...and since T5, T9, T13, A4, A8 and A12 are only arena fights against one boss, every trial could be called a raid, too...

Yea, they're raids. And, trials are trials. At the end-game, Both are 8 man content. Just because a raid isn't savage difficulty doesn't mean it's not a raid.

As convenient as you ignoring how many time he said that it was the team choices

Except he explicitly said that it's not a choice for early prog. You tried to argue that healer ACC was a "vision raiders try to enforce." Yoshida flat out says it wasn't raiders that made ACC mandatory, it was the devs by tuning content to require healer DPS in early prog. When the choice is between clearing the content and not clearing the content, it's not a choice.

Yeah, of course it started with that...

Yesterday, I ended with a PLD main tank that only spammed RoH throughout all of A11...it was really sad. But, now, let's imagine something. His WS rotation was extremely bad, but we still won the fight. Do you think he learned anything from that ?
Now, if the WS rotation was part of your tanking capabilities (i.e, generating enough enmity and mitigating damage), he would have died...and we would probably have lost.

Yes, it's a pain to lose a fight, but when it comes to the playerbase, it's better to lose one fight because the MT tank can't be carried that letting bad tanks clear even that kind of content.

Clear as the sky on a cloudless day.

On another topic, let's suppose you have a party with four BLM, that still think transposing is a way of switching between Fire and Ice, and that Enochian is useless. Even in normal raid, such a team wouldn't be able to win the fight with such a low DPS. Bad tanks shouldn't have that kind of free pass.

No, I think in NM, 2 elite tanks and 2 elite healers could still carry 4 DPS doing horrendous DPS. Those 4 could comfortably combine for 4k+ DPS. But, that's really beside the point since as other people have pointed out, equating 4 DPS to 1 tank is a false equivalency to begin with.

Really, you have this strange elitism and arrogance. On one hand, you criticize people good enough at this game to clear the hardest content as blind when we use facts and logic to prove you have your head stuck up your butt. On the other hand, you want to prevent huge swaths of players from experiencing an NM raid because they aren't up to your standards.

Casuals are the majority and they fuel this game. They pay the same sub anyone else does and they deserve to have proportionate representation in content creation.

As for the player I mentioned, you've actually acknowledged that it was really bad and that PvE progression model is bad...

...then the next post, suddenly, the difficulty disbtribution is fine ? Since you like your precise naming, Alex Normal is a raid it should teach you how to raid. And spamming RoH is a very bad way to play PLD at lvl 60. It's absurd to wait for Alex Savage to teach such a basic concept.

I never said the difficulty distribution was fine. I said it was better than the garbage you are proposing. If you want to teach someone to raid, then give them a progressive raiding pathway. Alex NM is fine. It's good that more people can experience the content and there needs to be easy 8-man content.

The problem is the lack of new mid-level 8-man content like Sophia EX (though A9S and A10S are probably easy enough to be considered mid-level content) and the lack of a proper incentive to revisit old 8-man content like Sephirot and Nidhogg EX which are probably still hard enough to be considered mid-level content for a lot of people. The problem is not that dungeons don't filter into raid progression. If someone wants to raid, then let them raid and learn through raiding.

[LilLemay]

No, I think in NM, 2 elite tanks and 2 elite healers could still carry 4 DPS doing horrendous DPS. Those 4 could comfortably combine for 4k+ DPS. But, that's really beside the point since as other people have pointed out, equating 4 DPS to 1 tank is a false equivalency to begin with.

This is infact entirely possible, I did regular a12 with three of my static member (ot, and my two healers) and we alone accounted for about 65% of the dps