Thread: Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

Originally Posted by Brian_

And healers can be carried through fights without casting a single heal.

Yet it's not a problem for you that a WAR wouldn't need any healing against a dungeon boss...and the tank is not the only one to take damage during a fight.

Originally Posted by Brian_

DPS can be carried through fights without dealing any damage.

Of course, because we all know how mitigating damage is a great way to deal with DPS checks.

Originally Posted by Brian_

Using that as a bar to measure the design of a job is foolish.

No, it's not. Alex NM is the best time to force people to improve on their job. You can't make everything faceroll, then kick everyone's butt when they enter savage. It's called a learning curve.

Originally Posted by Brian_

Again, those changes are not being made because of the tanks that could perform their jobs well. They're being made because of all the tanks who couldn't. So, when you discuss changes, that's the perspective that must be taken.

Actually, this is just speculation. They mentioned a change in job rotation, but as far as we know, they mostly talk about DPS skills, like Enochian and Blood of the Dragon.

Originally Posted by Brian_

As Brannigan pointed out, you and the people on your side of the argument are being dumb. You can't raise the skill floor on the job when the skill floor is already too high for the overwhelming majority of people.

Yes, you can, you raise the skill floor on content that asks no skill at all...why is a tank supposed to learn anything when he can pass A11 with just spamming RoH ?

Originally Posted by Brian_

That's just not true. If every job could do 2000 DPS by pressing 1 button, then a lot more people would clear hard content. If every tank had on demand hallowed ground for every tank buster, then a lot more people would clear hard content. If healers had a surplus of infinite range instant AoE healing / shielding, then a lot more people would clear hard content.

Then it wouldn't be hard content now, would it ?

Originally Posted by shao32

for me twintania and nael was the best raid bosses on they respectives tiers, tank and healers dps dont matter (bcs whe are a lot more busy trying to survive) and i hope we go back to that in 4.0 where i feel challenged like a tank and not like a pseudo dps-tank.

Even in ARR, tanks' DPS were still a part of the DPS checks (2 tanks contributed at least 1-1.5 of a DPS). SCH back then was more of a mitigation healer to mitigate tank busters through shields and Virus, in min ilvl t9, tank busters hit so hard that your SCH needs to have shield up to mitigate BUT in a full ilvl (i110 for that or even i130 for lvl50), SCH is barely needed. There was a reason why quite a lot of the teams did solo tank which was to make the fight easier to do through skipping adds and killing nael before more divebombs happened, it is pretty much the same idea: kill bosses before they do anything big that are annoying to do as a group.

Originally Posted by Reynhart

If you have the opportunity to play a tank so well that you literally mitigate/avoid enough damage to the point where you don't need any healing, it would be a far better testimony of your tanking skill than any uber DPS number you could achieve.

But that's far from the fact because healers still need to heal you up no matter what. You WILL always need healing no matter how "tanky" you are, FFXIV is just not that kind of game that allows you to be the impenetrable wall. You have to deal with it. What better testimony of a tank is mitigating fluff damage that constitute the same amount of healing needed anyway? You can test how long you can survive in any content without a single heal perhaps.

Note: maybe you should try Savage and see how good of a tank you can be that actually requires no heal at all. You might be able to cheese some of the easy facerolly contents and be your own healers but Savage just doesn't allow that.

Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, it's not. Alex NM is the best time to force people to improve on their job. You can't make everything faceroll, then kick everyone's butt when they enter savage. It's called a learning curve.

Alex NM is not great to force people to improve. How many people here actually have cleared A9S? The fight is basically a dummy fight with a few mechanics here and there and people still fail at it. The curve is still steep, quite a lot of people still regularly fail at Faust Z when it's literally just a walking dummy fight. Dazzling, isn't it? And to think that A9S A10S were all down in i240s. Gear can't buy skills yo.

Originally Posted by Sarcatica

snip

yep is true, not only in coil, in every content tank dps is in mind, bcs tanks dont stay and do nothing, they skills do damage, so n matter how low is the dps from a job, it is here need to be add to the formula, in ARR tank dps was check on tank stance and fending full parry specs, in other words the lower dps you can get from a tank and still you have enough time to clear anything before the enrage, and you need all mitigation you can get, nael hit as hell even with the maximun gear of that tier and only depend of the party, with meaby mega pro first kill can go to the luxury to sacrifice def for more ofensive alo of teams take a lot of advantage having the tank in full defensive build.

3.0 do it all wrong with tanks from the begining, str meta yeah start in ARR in the last tier, but dont inpac on the player base bcs the tank dps check was the same from the begining and extra mitigation and hp was still pretty very usefull, in heavensward not, tanks with minimun hp, the changes of parry, and extremly high dps checks, we become all dps with sub dutys like heal or tank, for not mention of WAR scaling on that meta making worse all and making the players how like to go more to wall mode get discriminated for a big part of the player base.

dont get me wrong, i love the tanks here, i love my dark knight and the paladinand how tanking in this game work, im just asking for changes to let us have another way to improve ourselfs in a defensive way like in 2.0 where you can go to ofensive tanking but the risk was more great, and you can go more defensive and make more easy for to comrades they job but a lot more better, after all DPS metas only made DPS encounters, lazy and very predictable with they dps checks and all the same, they can add some others mechanics like pull you out the platform but is still the same, i want to see a encounter where make the MT run ut of cds and swap with the OT to recover and every extra mitigation helps for example.

@Shao, just because you are not in tank stance, doesnt mean that you are doing good DPS. Most tanks are just bad at pressing buttons. OTs in DF reflect that.

People often mistaken personal dps as being selfish,for personal gains and etc. In fact, quite a good amount of raiding tanks understand the value of having a good personal dps, it reflects how good you are understanding the concept that SE puts and how much you can make use of those dps. There is nothing to be sad about how tanks are played currently, there is however one thing sad which is how the tanks can have the same tanking performance with such a huge gap of dps. Is pressing buttons in certain ways THAT hard? People blame too much about dropping tank stance but in fact people just suck at doing their dps rotation.

I was doing Sophia EX and this OT did 600 at end of fight, I was doing almost 1.3k as WAR there as MT. TLDR? People just suck at pressing buttons and this problem exists in all roles. Else how do you do such a low dps? I still remember I could do 400dps as PLD MT in T10 back in 2.55, how do you do 600dps nowadays anyway, even more as an OT or worse as a DPS? It just doesn't make sense. If you think DPS stance is a problem, look at how skilled the community is as a whole. This IMO is the one thing SE needs to address. Or is "my 12.99, my rule" still meta now?

Another thought: as long as DPS rotations exist, you always have the most optimal way of doing best damage and this game won't truly become casual by a far stretch.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

As long as SE leaves any meaningful learning tools beyond one's tooltips purely in the hands of the community that gap is just going to get larger, until floor and ceiling are both inevitably cut and all but that "majority" are encouraged to leave.

It's easy to blame SE for how poor the game's support structure is for learning but when you are playing an MMO, you should expect to do your homework outside of the game or be social inside the game if you want to be good. It's as easy as seeing players in A12S gear and pming them for advice or finding / starting a relevant FC / LS for self improvement. With how bad a lot of players are, it's not simply an issue of not having the tools. It's about overall aptitude, engagement, and motivation. At this point in time, you basically have all the information on everything already out there. If people don't want to do the work to improve currently, that's not evidence that they will want to do the work even if SE improves the in-game tools. As long as SE doesn't just abandon the lower spectrum of their player-base (and in making adjustments to rotations / skills, SE clearly isn't), you're going to have players that just don't want to do the work or might not have the aptitude to excel even with the work. At the end of the day, what SE sees is their internal clear-rate data and we are all in the same pool in that data.

The players who are at the top are playing the same game as the ones at the bottom.

Like I said earlier, one of the core issues is the gap between players who can get the most out of what they're given and the ones that can't. SE clearly wants to close that gap by making it easier to get the most out of what you're given.

Originally Posted by Sarcatica

That's just how it is, the right mind and approach are needed for hard contents, not necessarily the job balance.

That's just not true. If every job could do 2000 DPS by pressing 1 button, then a lot more people would clear hard content. If every tank had on demand hallowed ground for every tank buster, then a lot more people would clear hard content. If healers had a surplus of infinite range instant AoE healing / shielding, then a lot more people would clear hard content.

Yea, the mindset is obviously also important. But, how hard or easy the game is to play also obviously has an impact on clear rates.