Concerns about " Getting rid of unused and ineffective actions"

[Kaurie]

The problem is that it's not used in the context of combat, but to circumvent actually having to fight things. And really the problem in that case was Deep Sleep/Sleepga. An alternative would have been to replace the Deep Sleep trait with something else, that way a BLM can't realistically sleep a room's worth of mobs just so that the group can rush through a dungeon. Letting dungeon mobs cross the magic walls that come up when you engage a boss would also have worked, since you still have to fight the mobs you pulled.

Smart use of CC would be designing packs of mobs where one is more dangerous or need to be controlled so that it doesn't lead to the tank dying or some other inconvenience to the group. As I mentioned in an earlier post, allowing Sleep/Repose to be used on confused/mind-controlled player characters would also be a step in the right direction.

I think circumventing combat by using CC is a great way to use CC. It adds a bit more variety and thought towards trash rather than the current.

That said, I agree I would also like to see more CC as you mentioned in your second paragraph.

What I would not like to see is CC nerfed, because people are using it.

[Avenger]

Regarding manaward and manawall - I use them all the time on BLM - makes me much less dead and reduces need to move. I think you used to be able to block Titan's landslide (and other nasty attacks in various battles) with manawall until it was nerfed. ;-(

Regarding scathe - cast it all the time while moving if I don't have a thunder or fire proc; any instacast is good for movement or as a finishing move.

I'd like to hear from BLMs who use Freeze on a regular basis though. I mainly use it for visual effect.

[Pondera]

Regarding manaward and manawall - I use them all the time on BLM - makes me much less dead and reduces need to move. I think you used to be able to block Titan's landslide (and other nasty attacks in various battles) with manawall until it was nerfed. ;-(

Regarding scathe - cast it all the time while moving if I don't have a thunder or fire proc; any instacast is good for movement or as a finishing move.

I'd like to hear from BLMs who use Freeze on a regular basis though. I mainly use it for visual effect.

I use Freeze for the occasional blast of AoE, but also to lock down a stray add or two that got away from the tank. It doesn't happen AS much anymore, but there are times where a certain open world monster has A LOT more HP than I first thought, things have gone south, and binding it in place for a few seconds is vital to my plans of staying alive. IMHO, the creative ways one uses those "unused and ineffective actions" is what separates okay players from great players.

[Shurrikhan]

Having all of those conditional targeting in the code would be troubling. I mean, I main WHM and when I do solo content I just throw out heals while targeting enemies because it defaults to healing myself. With the change as well, i;d have to change my strategy to specifically target myself, or I'd die because I wouldn't be auto-targeting myself for heals if I was solo fighting an undead that gets damaged by heals. While it would be interesting to have all of these elements added into the game, I'm sure the sheer amount of recoding to add that element would be daunting...

It may be feasible to be brought into an expac, possibly, but they'd need to have a specific reason to do so. Their "pruning" of the skills is likely part of optimizing the new classes they will be adding and keeping functionality between Tank/Healer/DPS as they're streamlining the roles with the expac. Battle system changes are made specifically to accommodate new battle mechanics being added, and it's possible that with Red Mage coming out, they might have something like role selection and that's why they're streamlining things so that you have more sub-abilities available based on your role and not just because as a certain job you have access to certain classes sub-abilities. It seems they are removing that.

My only point was that they don't need to remove abilities to cut down on button bloat, as long as they're willing to provide alternative hotbar setups. Ideally, we should be able to customize all that for ourselves.

Probably my biggest fear about 4.0 is the removal of any form of versatility via what might be considered "cross-role". I've lost interest in multiple MMOs over that exact line of redevelopment, and their subscription numbers and forums would indicate I'm not in the minority there. I'd much rather go back and find a way to make these so-called useless (non-specific-content, i.e. raid, -optimal) skills creatively viable.

[Duelle]

I think circumventing combat by using CC is a great way to use CC. It adds a bit more variety and thought towards trash rather than the current.

Trash mobs are a pacing mechanism to dungeon progress, not something you should aim to skip just because you don't want to fight them. This isn't like trying to edge around a pack of mobs, as your chances of success are roughly 50-50 (this is easily proven in normal Hullbreaker Isle).

What you're suggesting puts way too much power in the hands of classes with CC. And again, being able to sleep a room's worth of mobs to rush the boss is not balanced and should definitely not be rewarded.

[Alistaire]

Always thought that haymaker should have been bind effect. If we're gonna have the back/flank mechanic I mean.

Why not give it pacification? That'd be more useful and make more sense. You're not really stuck after getting hit like that, just dazed.

And apparently in 1.0 it had a bonus hitting from the front, which also makese sense and would be nice to have back.

[Shurrikhan]

Trash mobs are a pacing mechanism to dungeon progress, not something you should aim to skip just because you don't want to fight them. This isn't like trying to edge around a pack of mobs, as your chances of success are roughly 50-50 (this is easily proven in normal Hullbreaker Isle).

What you're suggesting puts way too much power in the hands of classes with CC. And again, being able to sleep a room's worth of mobs to rush the boss is not balanced and should definitely not be rewarded.

Other situations could make it feel both balancing and rewarding, however. For instance, if friendly fire was more of a thing for enemy mobs, you could CC as to get mobs to arrive in time for a boss attack that would damage them, rather than locking them out completely. They're still a threat; you just have a new, creative, and speedier (although riskier) way to deal with them.

I'd still take the lock-out option over nothing, though. At worst, you can give bonus whatever per-mob or at the end of the run based on clear rate, as long as those rewards have a different priority than would be the point of a CC speedrun.

Why not give it pacification? That'd be more useful and make more sense. You're not really stuck after getting hit like that, just dazed.

And apparently in 1.0 it had a bonus hitting from the front, which also makese sense and would be nice to have back.

The original Haymaker was just a really strong attack, while Jarring Blow provided a stun. The frontal bonus was on Concussive Blow, added with all other positionals in 1.18, the mass Yoshida revision to the combat system, as the second part of Pugilist's primary combo, and it inflicted Blind.

I'd agree though that Pacification would make a lot of sense, but at the same time that could actually increase damage done against you, as all Pacification really does is remove specials, the majority of which are dodgeable and prevent auto-attacks during their cast. A slow is generally more effective, even if its effects aren't very visual. Ideally, I'd like it to take up a new CC type, Daze, which would function as a package of lesser debuffs, including an effect on turning speed. That said, that still wouldn't give it any more raid usage, except potentially to help the tank dodge tracking cleaves.

[Jetstream_Fox]

I'm more concerned about how the new battle system is going to play, not so much what skills I lose. A lot of classes need to be reworked and a lot of skills need to go through an reexamination, BRD, SMN, SCH, are 3 that really ring a bell off the top of my head as classes that need a complete overhaul. BRD is a wreck because of WM and SE has no idea what to do with the class, SMN has always felt out of place and it's summon aspect is neglected, and SCH also falls into the category of feeling like it was intended to be something else.

It almost sounds like they want to forgo the trinity, which if that's a case it would make sense for all the classes to be reworked like they're saying. But if not, the useless skills are really due to the fact SE hasn't built content around all the skills a class has, like I can't even say the last time I've used shadowbind because there isn't real any content that requires BRD to bind target, and likely the group has a stun which beats out bind. If the battle system isn't dropping the trinity, wouldn't it be more logical for them to redesign skills before they determine what is truly useless?

[Alistaire]

I'd agree though that Pacification would make a lot of sense, but at the same time that could actually increase damage done against you, as all Pacification really does is remove specials, the majority of which are dodgeable and prevent auto-attacks during their cast. A slow is generally more effective, even if its effects aren't very visual. Ideally, I'd like it to take up a new CC type, Daze, which would function as a package of lesser debuffs, including an effect on turning speed. That said, that still wouldn't give it any more raid usage, except potentially to help the tank dodge tracking cleaves.

Would honestly be better for them to make good use of existing debuffs first, though I see your point about pacification. The problem with others is if you give 1 job access to a new good one it becomes "in demand" which Yoshi's stated he's against. They could give it paralyze, accuracy down, or several other mob-only (or potion only for players) debuff, but then like candy, you have to bring some for everyone in the class if you're going to bring it at all.

[Shurrikhan]

Would honestly be better for them to make good use of existing debuffs first, though I see your point about pacification. The problem with others is if you give 1 job access to a new good one it becomes "in demand" which Yoshi's stated he's against. They could give it paralyze, accuracy down, or several other mob-only (or potion only for players) debuff, but then like candy, you have to bring some for everyone in the class if you're going to bring it at all.

Just depends on how potent the effect actually is. And then there's always new ways of scaling debuffs, so they're not always a flat percentage that may well be pathetic on insignificant mobs (and therefore always outvalued by pure dps) while mandatory against stronger ones, such as by creating a means of 'conditional damage' or 'AP/SP-modified potency'.

Something being unique doesn't make it required; something being uniquely powerful does. And that's what balance is for.