Concerns about " Getting rid of unused and ineffective actions"

[Shurrikhan]

Having all of those conditional targeting in the code would be troubling. I mean, I main WHM and when I do solo content I just throw out heals while targeting enemies because it defaults to healing myself. With the change as well, i;d have to change my strategy to specifically target myself, or I'd die because I wouldn't be auto-targeting myself for heals if I was solo fighting an undead that gets damaged by heals. While it would be interesting to have all of these elements added into the game, I'm sure the sheer amount of recoding to add that element would be daunting...

It may be feasible to be brought into an expac, possibly, but they'd need to have a specific reason to do so. Their "pruning" of the skills is likely part of optimizing the new classes they will be adding and keeping functionality between Tank/Healer/DPS as they're streamlining the roles with the expac. Battle system changes are made specifically to accommodate new battle mechanics being added, and it's possible that with Red Mage coming out, they might have something like role selection and that's why they're streamlining things so that you have more sub-abilities available based on your role and not just because as a certain job you have access to certain classes sub-abilities. It seems they are removing that.

My only point was that they don't need to remove abilities to cut down on button bloat, as long as they're willing to provide alternative hotbar setups. Ideally, we should be able to customize all that for ourselves.

Probably my biggest fear about 4.0 is the removal of any form of versatility via what might be considered "cross-role". I've lost interest in multiple MMOs over that exact line of redevelopment, and their subscription numbers and forums would indicate I'm not in the minority there. I'd much rather go back and find a way to make these so-called useless (non-specific-content, i.e. raid, -optimal) skills creatively viable.

[Avenger]

Regarding manaward and manawall - I use them all the time on BLM - makes me much less dead and reduces need to move. I think you used to be able to block Titan's landslide (and other nasty attacks in various battles) with manawall until it was nerfed. ;-(

Regarding scathe - cast it all the time while moving if I don't have a thunder or fire proc; any instacast is good for movement or as a finishing move.

I'd like to hear from BLMs who use Freeze on a regular basis though. I mainly use it for visual effect.

[Pondera]

Regarding manaward and manawall - I use them all the time on BLM - makes me much less dead and reduces need to move. I think you used to be able to block Titan's landslide (and other nasty attacks in various battles) with manawall until it was nerfed. ;-(

Regarding scathe - cast it all the time while moving if I don't have a thunder or fire proc; any instacast is good for movement or as a finishing move.

I'd like to hear from BLMs who use Freeze on a regular basis though. I mainly use it for visual effect.

I use Freeze for the occasional blast of AoE, but also to lock down a stray add or two that got away from the tank. It doesn't happen AS much anymore, but there are times where a certain open world monster has A LOT more HP than I first thought, things have gone south, and binding it in place for a few seconds is vital to my plans of staying alive. IMHO, the creative ways one uses those "unused and ineffective actions" is what separates okay players from great players.

[Avenger]

IMHO, the creative ways one uses those "unused and ineffective actions" is what separates okay players from great players.

This - although my hotbar is exploding, I really like the idea and possibility of coming up with creative ways of using or combining various less-popular spells or skills. ;-)

[Jetstream_Fox]

I'm more concerned about how the new battle system is going to play, not so much what skills I lose. A lot of classes need to be reworked and a lot of skills need to go through an reexamination, BRD, SMN, SCH, are 3 that really ring a bell off the top of my head as classes that need a complete overhaul. BRD is a wreck because of WM and SE has no idea what to do with the class, SMN has always felt out of place and it's summon aspect is neglected, and SCH also falls into the category of feeling like it was intended to be something else.

It almost sounds like they want to forgo the trinity, which if that's a case it would make sense for all the classes to be reworked like they're saying. But if not, the useless skills are really due to the fact SE hasn't built content around all the skills a class has, like I can't even say the last time I've used shadowbind because there isn't real any content that requires BRD to bind target, and likely the group has a stun which beats out bind. If the battle system isn't dropping the trinity, wouldn't it be more logical for them to redesign skills before they determine what is truly useless?

[Kiteless]

SMN has always felt out of place and it's summon aspect is neglected

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if they phased out the pet entirely, and focused on giving flashy summon invocations like Deathflare. As things stand, the current state of SMN pets just has them acting as a ball and chain for an extended set of skills, as opposed to being actually interesting as pets. Titan Egi is the most interesting and engaging of the bunch, but isn't something that should actually end up seeing play in the first place.

[ADVSS]

there is no effect outside of paralyze praise the paralyze god which only bosses and enemies are allowed to have a use

[Alistaire]

there is no effect outside of paralyze praise the paralyze god which only bosses and enemies are allowed to have a use

And people doing lv 50 content that carry potent paralyze potions.

[SaitoHikari]

I'm way, WAY more intrigued by what they intend to do with the cross class system. They outright stated that they're going to make cross class skills role-based now, but at the same time, I imagine them addressing the complaint of being absolutely required to level other classes to a certain point in order to even touch endgame in the eyes of the community. Especially as a non-PLD tank.

I have a feeling they're going to axe leveling other classes for cross class skills entirely (and eventually eliminate the need to level other classes to obtain your job stones), instead automatically giving the skills to you once you hit certain levels as any class within your role. Sort of like this healer mock-up idea...

Healer cross-classes: Conjurer/White Mage/Scholar/Astrologian
- Lv. 5: Protect
- Lv. 10: Cleric Stance
- Lv. 15: Virus
- Lv. 25: Stoneskin
- Lv. 35: Swiftcast
- Lv. 45: Surecast

Aero, Physick, Cure, and Blizzard II would no longer be cross-classable among the Healer jobs. I thought about whether or not Stoneskin should remain a cross-class skill as well (since there's no denying that WHMs have identity issues right now and there is no cross-class skill originating from them that they can actually use better than the other two healers borrowing them right now), but that leads to another point... For most cross class skills that originated from a class, that class should get a trait that allows them to use said skill better than the other classes (if one doesn't already exist, like with Supervirus). Protect and Cleric Stance would be exceptions though, due to how absolutely vital both are (and that I've no idea how to trait them for WHMs that don't automatically rocket them into Scholar-tier broken level).

For Stoneskin, White Mages should either get to regain their Graniteskin trait, or they get to learn Stoneskin II earlier (I'd say at the level that Stoneskin is currently learned at), AND the swift stoneskin trait gets replaced by a new trait that lets them cast Stoneskin II mid-battle.

Likewise, Black Mages (though not a healer, still serves as a good example here) could get a trait that lowers their own Swiftcast cooldown to 40 seconds, in exchange for that skill now being cross-classed across all casters.

For a non-caster example, Paladin Provoke could be traited to inflict a 10 second debuff that increases the target's chance of being affected by a critical hit by 10% for 15 seconds (though it'd only work if the Paladin is not already at the top of the list).

[Lambdafish]

Healer cross-classes: Conjurer/White Mage/Scholar/Astrologian
- Lv. 5: Protect
- Lv. 10: Cleric Stance
- Lv. 15: Virus
- Lv. 25: Stoneskin
- Lv. 35: Swiftcast
- Lv. 45: Surecast

This worries me actually. As a PLD, does that mean that I lose Stoneskin and protect? To me, these skills are part of what makes PLD unique, as a tank that in the OT position (mostly) is able to assist healers during rough patches, as well as apply protect to recently raised party members, allowing healers to heal/raise without wasting time and MP. But of course, PLD is a tank, not a healer, so this uniqueness will likely get taken away. I have done this in raid environments and it has been extremely useful, please do not take these tools away (the other tanks have nothing useful to add to PLD other than foresight and mercy stroke).

My entire mentality when playing PLD is different to playing WAR. For WAR, my primary objective is to beat on the boss, however as a PLD, I am very spatially aware, dealing less damage on the boss, but keeping an eye on other party members, being aware of when healers struggle, and do what I can to assist with the toolkit that I have, which is how PLD should be, and I don't want to be turned into a WAR that has smaller hits but bigger shields.