SE must be drunk.

[Reynhart]

Yep. Worked the same way but in a system were gear sets were king.

Actually, no, there was a huge difference.

I had a leveling static where I played PLD, and we had a THF and a SAM. At lvl 33, the more famous skillchain was Tachi: Enpi - Viper Bite, used with Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.
The thing is, SA+TA-VB was so powerful that keeping aggro on that was very difficult. So, frequently, the SAM provoked the mob away from the tank, so that the THF could align behind the tank and behind the mob.

But, if you knew how to hold aggro really well, you could keep the mob on you, while the THF stayed behind the mob and the SAM, and the mob wouldn't turn around.

In FFXI, DPS were much more powerful but were limited by how many enmity the tank could generate. When you ended with a good tank as a DPS, you really felt like you didn't have to hold back and it was a great feeling, for the tank and for the DPS.

Because the game design homogenizes every job class within the Trinity so there is little to no diversity whatsoever. As a result all 3 Tanks largely function the same outside of their one trick pony gimmicks.

Of course, it does, since everything people complain about is the lack of DPS. PLD's only adjustement during 3.x was to improve its DPS despite still supposed to be "the tank that mitigates". It's not that complicated to design them with another goal and still achieve similar results.

You don't really feel like much of a Tank if you become reliant on a Healer to top you off after every other Tankbuster with the autoattack followups. Feels more like have enough HP to survive and let the healer basically heal all the damage. And unfortunately as a DRK I am always super reliant on a healer. Not by choice but by design unfortunately.

That's exactly how tanks are now. You always rely on the healer to keep you alive. As a PLD, let me be a turtle, let me rely less on the healer to survive, since surviving is supposed to be my thing. And you can keep your WAR as the sturdier DPS.

Tanks surviving tank busters in DPS stance is mostly because they manage their CDs well enough to cycle without having healers to shield them, and it's not even a new concept in this game.

No, it's mostly because the fight design makes it too easy to heal them inbetween tank busters, even if they stay out of tank stance.

High DPS is still required to clear raids, and that is a fact. Your opinions and the facts just don't mix.

Yes, it is required. But having high personal DPS is not the only way for tanks to contribute in increasing the raid DPS. If DRK could provide TP and MP refresh with some of its skills, then MCH and BRD wouldn't have to sacrifice their DPS. If PLD mitigates enough (for him or by helping the MT) so that one healer can go 100% Cleric Stance (unless shitty situations) or even replace it with a fifth DPS, PLD's mitigation would improve raid DPS.

Just don't narrow the party's dynamic to one way when we have so much jobs...

[MagiusNecros]

I think the tanking meta basically killed itself when people got it into their heads that actual mitigation doesn't matter and the only thing they became concerned about was pressing all the buttons to push numbers harder to get faster clears under the notion that you mitigate all damage if the boss is dead.

I'd much rather Tanks be rewarded by being that impenetrable wall of defense instead of having a healer hold their hand. You see stats focusing solely on attack power but we get nothing to increase defenses.

[Sarcatica]

I think the tanking meta basically killed itself when people got it into their heads that actual mitigation doesn't matter and the only thing they became concerned about was pressing all the buttons to push numbers harder to get faster clears under the notion that you mitigate all damage if the boss is dead.

I'd much rather Tanks be rewarded by being that impenetrable wall of defense instead of having a healer hold their hand.

Actual mitigations still matter a lot. It's just that raiders get better and better to the point that anything more is a waste and better placed on another objectives they want to accomplish. There are of course tanks giving more unneeded stress to their healers, but that's part of how it should be played out.

YMight as well let tanks do 0 dmg and only generate aggro, rotate CDs (because that's more interesting?) and healers only can heal (standing still waiting HP go down and heal again so fun?). That's not how MMO works.

[Sarcatica]

Yes, it is required. But having high personal DPS is not the only way for tanks to contribute in increasing the raid DPS. If DRK could provide TP and MP refresh with some of its skills, then MCH and BRD wouldn't have to sacrifice their DPS. If PLD mitigates enough (for him or by helping the MT) so that one healer can go 100% Cleric Stance (unless shitty situations) or even replace it with a fifth DPS, PLD's mitigation would improve raid DPS.

Just don't narrow the party's dynamic to one way when we have so much jobs...

Currently only A9S dries up TP fast (due to aoe-ing and 100% uptime on boss) for the TP users that BRD/MCH has to give TP song. The rest of the tier is just singing Ballad and/or Foes which is for the benefits of the team, in the first place they are used in raid mostly for support.

The funny thing is one healer is already almost going full DPS (SCH, yes), your point is invalid on PLD mitigating enough. The word "enough" is very hard to take at face value, "enough" can be easy for the best raiders which in turn makes "enough" very hard for average joes, vice versa, "enough" for majorities making that "enough" unnecessary for raiders. Just because you haven't experienced it yet doesn't make your point valid by a long stretch. When you go to raid, you need to have a certain competency to pull your own weight, even if you are tanks/healers, you are still subjected to chime in DPS.

High personal DPS can have different meanings, some people just make healers heal more for their epeens, some just want to have enough to clear, that's how they want/choose to do it. What is considered as "high" DPS anyway? Is 500dps high? Is 1.4k low? Your definition will be different than let's say mine.

No, it's mostly because the fight design makes it too easy to heal them inbetween tank busters, even if they stay out of tank stance.

Then can we expect 50% of the community to clear A12S before 4.0? If it's so easy, why aren't we all cleared already?

[MagiusNecros]

Actual mitigations still matter a lot. It's just that raiders get better and better to the point that anything more is a waste and better placed on another objectives they want to accomplish. There are of course tanks giving more unneeded stress to their healers, but that's part of how it should be played out.

YMight as well let tanks do 0 dmg and only generate aggro, rotate CDs (because that's more interesting?) and healers only can heal (standing still waiting HP go down and heal again so fun?). That's not how MMO works.

If mitigation only matters in raids(probably Savage onry) then I'd say mitigation is losing importance in lieu of scripted fights that are dependent on mechanic jump rope, being reliant on the healers keeping up with outgoing damage all while fighting enrage timers which relies on DPS checks which everything just seems to be a glorified DPS check. And when not met the game basically says time's up enjoy your 99999 free damage for everyone.

In all honesty if Tanks are wielding the big meaty ass weapons we should hit like a truck but with a longer GCD to accompany the weight of our weapons instead of hitting like a wet noodle.

If Tank DPS is meant to be as low as it is we'll need more defenses to actually prove we can take more then 2 big hits without healer support. Because once healers go down the entire battle is over. Both the Tank and DPS are dependent on them.

Then can we expect 50% of the community to clear A12S before 4.0? If it's so easy, why aren't we all cleared already?

90% isn't even going to do it because damage values are overbloated, mechanics pedantic, and overall reward mediocre. And given all the Parry being thrown around on Tank gear and most of it sucking major ass I can't blame people not caring. If it's going to be secondaries not meaning a damn thing you may as well strip away the illusion of control and stick to main stats and show players how linear gear progression actually is.

[Sarcatica]

If mitigation only matters in raids(probably Savage onry) then I'd say mitigation is losing importance in lieu of scripted fights that are dependent on mechanic jump rope, being reliant on the healers keeping up with outgoing damage all while fighting enrage timers which relies on DPS checks which everything just seems to be a glorified DPS check. And when not met the game basically says time's up enjoy your 99999 free damage for everyone.

In all honesty if Tanks are wielding the big meaty ass weapons we should hit like a truck but with a longer GCD to accompany the weight of our weapons instead of hitting like a wet noodle.

If Tank DPS is meant to be as low as it is we'll need more defenses to actually prove we can take more then 2 big hits without healer support. Because once healers go down the entire battle is over. Both the Tank and DPS are dependent on them.

There are a lot of encounters that still needs CDs to survive tank busters outside of Savage contents, but that's mostly gone because you outlevel the contents pretty quickly. Sooner or later, in Sophia EX you don't even need CDs to her tank busters with 35k HP.

The foundation of the team composition is the tanks and healers, they are inseparable. MMO isn't supposed to be "I CAN TAKE ALL HITS ALONE I CAN HEAL I CAN DPS", not a solo game. You need to rely on others when you are playing any MMOs. Name any MMOs that you can solo the newer contents. None.

[MagiusNecros]

XIV needs to be it's own thing. Attempting to be like other MMO's just proves a lack of identity. Content that gets easier to the point you can throw away your defensive skills once higher gear is acquired just sounds like a problem IMO. You claim MMO's are to rely on others, to be a helpful community yet all the gear acquired is untradable on acquisition akin to a solo game experience. Not much of an MMO I'm afraid. What kind of MMO puts such tight limits to the point we can't help out others in the community?

[vigioX-Sun]

Tank DPS?
Healer DPS?
this are the best jobs for me, tank just to be a meatpunch is boring.
Heal an just to sit there a wait for someone to lose hp is boring too.
instead those jobs should get more offensive stats!.
Best multitasking are tanks an healers.. an at least im happy that way.

[Sarcatica]

XIV needs to be it's own thing. Attempting to be like other MMO's just proves a lack of identity. Content that gets easier to the point you can throw away your defensive skills once higher gear is acquired just sounds like a problem IMO. You claim MMO's are to rely on others, to be a helpful community yet all the gear acquired is untradable on acquisition akin to a solo game experience. Not much of an MMO I'm afraid. What kind of MMO puts such tight limits to the point we can't help out others in the community?

The thing about trading gear is very much tied to selling/buying, I wouldn't want the players to abuse the system because people are free to sell/buy gear for real money etc. Establishing a system to monitor this matter is not easy too, 1 small mistake and your players go poof.

We can still help people to clear and all that. Run contents together. I don't see any problem if people are willing to improve. The real problem is there is no real tangible achievements or drivers to motivate players to do better which in turn makes it really douche to just wanting to clear without putting personal effort.

Contents will get easier, no matter how much you want to sugarcoat. This is why SE needs to motivate players to be better for them to actually try contents that challenge them rather than waiting for the contents to be outdated and smash them.

[MagiusNecros]

motivate players to be better

Gonna be hard when there is no incentive to do better when gear is constantly outdated and we have catch up patches that make months of work completely trivial. Only incentives players have each patch is MSQ for the most part. And if 4.0 follows 3.0 framework I expect lots of dropped subscriptions.

Because it's been Tomestones and Tokens for a few years now. And quite frankly people are tired of it. That and stat allocation is junk when it only ever focuses on offensive stats which gets pumped into you guessed it the main attack stat.