FFXIV has some serious competition with WoW: Legion

[Reynhart]

You need content that makes Paladins stand out; those hard hitting mobs/bosses that make players say "Damn, I wish we brought a Paladin."

But what will you do if you end with WAR or DRK in a the Duty/Raid Finder ?
That's the problem with Yoshi-P's view of PLD. A tank can't focus on mitigation, since mitigation is the basis of the role, unless you really push it to the extreme. Make PLD sturdy enough that it doesn't need a healer, and suddenly, it will stand out. You can decrease its DPS to abysmal level as a tradeoff, but your party will have 5 DPS instead of 4 to compensate.

And frankly, DRK and PLD could have been close enough to each other without basically recycling Shield Oath and Rampart.
A suggestion I made a long time ago about DRK is to have its tank stance be a reactive leech. Each time you're hit, you reflect back 20% of the damage (Capped by DRK's HP max), and leech this amount as HP. Basically, you'd still only "suffers' 80% of the damage, like Shield Oath, but you'd have to stay high enough on HP so that the hit doesn't kill you before the leech effect procs. And it would also be your main source of damage, while your WS would focus on enmity generation and debufs.

Legion's sales were 3.3 million.

Isn't the WoW playerbase way higer than that ? Being an expansion, you would say that every active player would buy it, especially if WoW's expansion are not tied to each other and you can jump into Legion right from the start.

[Zojha]

Isn't the WoW playerbase way higer than that ?

It was speculated to be around 3,5 million at the end of Warlords. They stopped posting official numbers at 5,6 million at the start of Warlords.

There usually is a population spike at the start of an expansion, so...I'd have expected around 4-4,2 million sales.

[Duelle]

Actually, no, it doesn't. The problem is not with the existence of Hallowed Ground, but in the raid design to make HG mandatory. For example, in A1S, you have to use HG on one of the Plasma because you other skills would all be on CD. While DRK and WAR could keep Holmgang and LD safe for when things go really sour.

The fact Holmgang and Living Dead scrape the bottom of the barrel design and concept-wise supports my point of Hallowed Ground creating a problem, specially since the devs seem to agree with me on the fact that Hallowed Ground existing = every tank has to have a copy of it to be complete.

If you de-emphasize Hallowed Ground it becomes a get out of jail free card for PLD (moreso if you replace Living Dead with something else and remove Holmgang's invincibility), and that may mean a considerable advantage depending on the setting.

As a sidenote, in FFXI, PLD was the only tank to have an Invincible buff, yet it was frequently the less prefered tank.

You forget that the reason for that was NIN's ability to hold aggro and take no damage for prolonged amounts of time, far longer than Invincible's duration with a fraction of the cooldown timer.

I think the problem is that they want to create many many jobs. You can't really tank or heal with many different ways, so why not keep those roles with only a few jobs ? And give them different builds to steel cater to different type of players (No one complains that two builds of the same job have the same skills at the core...)

Considering builds are prone to one build ruling them all on top of this game's lacking variety (I want my DPS Red Mage that dresses like a french musketeer and sets their sword on fire), limiting the number of jobs is the last thing I want to see happen.

Tank and heal approaches are a combination of styles (AKA gameplay) and the mechanics behind the gameplay. I'll shoot off my usual list to illustrate my point. (NOTE: Not all of these are representations of how the jobs are currently designed, but I'm giving you possible concepts these jobs could be designed around to give them their own identity without being on different star systems performance-wise)

PLD: Straightforward tank with a shield and defensive cooldowns.
WAR: Builds wrath and spends it to mitigate or deal damage.
DRK: Drains HP from enemies with a focus on parries and reducing damage received.
BST: Relies on a high HP pool and high defense rating (because it combines the stats of the master and their pet) with a slight advantage in AoE damage (specially if said pet is big like a bear).
DNC: Mitigates damage taken by grazing hits and has a slight advantage in dodging attacks.

WHM: Direct heals, with healing cooldowns and some HoTs to supplement.
SCH: Focus on barriers and secondary healing via their fairy.
AST: Focus on HoTs and some direct heals.
CHM: Focus on heals that react to one another and heals that react to the target ally taking damage.
MYS: Some direct heals, some HoTs, delays damage received by target allies as well as converting some of the damage taken to HP for that ally.

Sure, you could boil all of these down to 2 or 3 jobs, but the thing is that not everyone wants tank as a dude in heavy armor. Likewise, not everyone wants to heal as a guy in a dress. We had someone on these forums not long ago asking for a more rugged style of healer because they weren't digging sparkly lights restoring HP. It may not seem important, but it's very damn important.

[Reynhart]

The fact Holmgang and Living Dead scrape the bottom of the barrel design and concept-wise supports my point of Hallowed Ground creating a problem, specially since the devs seem to agree with me on the fact that Hallowed Ground existing = every tank has to have a copy of it to be complete.

You didn't make strat based around Holmgang or HG before Final Coil. The shift in design transformed them from "Oh!Shit" skill to "another mitigation CD" in your rotation.

You forget that the reason for that was NIN's ability to hold aggro and take no damage for prolonged amounts of time, far longer than Invincible's duration with a fraction of the cooldown timer.

NIN didn't have anything native to hold aggro for years, relying only on /WAR. And Utsusemi was not that game breaking, considering you could use it also as /NIN. What set NIN appart from PLD was that it does more damage. Sounds familiar, right ?

Considering builds are prone to one build ruling them all

People always say that...but you know you can make different builds without one being always better than the other ?

PLD: Straightforward tank with a shield and defensive cooldowns.
WAR: Builds wrath and spends it to mitigate or deal damage.
DRK: Drains HP from enemies with a focus on parries and reducing damage received.
BST: Relies on a high HP pool and high defense rating

WAR is already a tank that relies on high HP pool and high defense rating. In fact, some expert WAR on this forum would gladly say that Inner Beast is a waste of stacks.

As for PLD and DRK, passive parry and block are the same gameplay wise. And "reducing damage received" is the same as "defensive cooldowns".

[Dumbledoremd]

This is the problem I'm refering to.
Yoshi P catering to these WoW players who will just jump ships when Blizzard presents something to get them back on their feet and they leave.
The same people Yoshi P is trying so hard to please on the expense and heart of the FF brand because of adapting to whats already out there.

Hey look its the anti yoshi p ff 11 fanboy that cant move on

[Altera]

If people find more enjoyment in WOW, than all the more power to them.

I played WOW from 2005 - 2011, and quit WOW due to it started to loose its heart and soul, and becoming too simplified and easy, and I actually quit WOW for XIV 1.0
How many times have BLizzard rewritten its WOW Lore to fit in with the new expansions? Lorewise, Legion is a joke and slap in the face in my opinion. I guess Deathwing really did manage to kill off Azeroth, for me at least hehe

[Awful]

I play both games, like both games, none are superior to each other I just like a bunch of aspects from each game and hope that they'll learn something from each other.

For example WoW has Mythic Dungeons+ where you get a modifier to change the difficulty for the enemies inside, for example when a mob reaches 30% it enrages same with all mobs/bosses. It adds variety to the dungeons and I wish FF XIV had something like this in the form of Savage Dungeons to provide people with a 4 man dungeon LS/FC as the rewards in WoW can be on par with raid drops or can roll better and higher in ilvl.

I personally enjoy the classes in FF XIV compared to WoW I know it's a bold statement but it's just what I prefer it's probably because FF XIV is more alt friendly compared to Legion as if you're behind on artifact power for your weapon you're basically screwed at this point in the xpac, or you're farming a ton of artifact power to only find out your friends are higher lvl then you.

World quests are enjoyable until you do them everyday over and over and get the same ilvl 800 blue, gold or garrison resources, i'm glad it adds world flavor something I love in MMOs which is why I wish FF XIV had more world stuff to do besides FATEs. World quests are a blessing and a curse as 3 of my friends on another server have 3 legendaries 1 for each person and they've played 2 weeks where i've grinded my ass off, did the raids and get nothing it's frustrating as all hell.

I prefer the trials compared to the boss fights in Legion as well, now don't take this as FF XIV's bosses are superior no they're not the trials and Midas + Creator are prime examples how much fun i've had in this game. I do enjoy the Emerald Nightmare but the bosses are just well...forgettable FF XIV makes me remember them especially Titan EX and Seph EX like holy shit those are prime examples of fights done right even the new trial Sophia is tons of fun with uniqueness.

As for stats yeah no competition WoW has better stats mastery being notable as it changes depending on spec and adds flavor to your class that you play for example mastery for demon hunter tanks adds more mitigation and attack power based on mastery it's bloody brilliant. As for FF XIV we only have Crit, Det, Sks, Sps, Parry, which don't offer as much as say mastery or haste in WoW. Gear upgrades in WoW feel more rewarding too I remember doing a heroic and getting an ilvl 850 trinket out of there my first week and was amazed that I got it whereas getting a gear upgrade in FF XIV is just like well it is an upgrade but I don't really feel it at all because of the stats (if you're going for the right ones that is) you'll barely feel a difference.

Gonna tie these both in together the battle system and music I enjoy a lot more then WoW yeah 2.5 GCD is notably different but it works well with the combos and OGCDs for WoW I just spam my 1-2-3 and my mitigation ability as I play tank as well as my other 2 OGCD abilities. It works but it's simplified to the point where a 5 year old can do it, compared to FF XIV to perfect your class albeit tank, healer, DPS pushing your class to the limit is much more rewarding then in WoW where based on spec, nerfs, patches etc your class can reign supreme but in FF XIV knowing your class inside and out and being a good player is much better in my opinion.

Anyways those are the points that stood out to me from a long time vanilla WoW player and a 2.0 FF XIV player I enjoy both and i'll continue to play both it's what I truly enjoy.

[loreleidiangelo]

snip

I don't agree with all of your points of view, but I did want to at least remark that it was nice to see feedback on Legion from someone who obviously gave it a fair chance. Have my Like.

[Awful]

I don't agree with all of your points of view, but I did want to at least remark that it was nice to see feedback on Legion from someone who obviously gave it a fair chance. Have my Like.

It's alright everyone's entitled to their own opinions and these are just mine I'd be interested in what you have to say can never get too many perspectives! Besides it gives me more brainstorming ideas as well haha.

[Duelle]

You didn't make strat based around Holmgang or HG before Final Coil. The shift in design transformed them from "Oh!Shit" skill to "another mitigation CD" in your rotation.

Which in essence makes it pointless to have an invincibility when a damage mitigation ability with a shorter cooldown would be more beneficial, doesn't it?

NIN didn't have anything native to hold aggro for years, relying only on /WAR. And Utsusemi was not that game breaking, considering you could use it also as /NIN.

When an ability turns fight design on its head, there's something horribly wrong and would normally be dealt with.

What set NIN apart from PLD was that it does more damage. Sounds familiar, right?

That's largely because NIN was designed to be a melee DPS/debuffer, but the importance of Utsusemi as used by players threw the intended design out the window.

WAR is already a tank that relies on high HP pool and high defense rating.

WAR doesn't become a squishy DRG/MNK-level melee when out of tank stance. WAR also doesn't have their choice of a pet to bring to dungeons and raids.

In fact, some expert WAR on this forum would gladly say that Inner Beast is a waste of stacks.

I won't get into it here, but suffice to say that this underscores the problems with how WAR is designed.

As for PLD and DRK, passive parry and block are the same gameplay wise. And "reducing damage received" is the same as "defensive cooldowns".

Not necessarily. One idea I had was DRK creating a damage-absorbing barrier when using Soul Eater while in Grit, and draining HP when out of Grit. Another idea was a skill called Dread Spike that would negate the next incoming attack and restore a portion of your HP (basically what Aegis Boon from 1.0 used to be).