A12 savage World first 3 days after patch

[Ibi]

It seems that this comunity doesnt even know what it wants

Midas savage: "too dificult, gives something less hard"

Creator savage: "too blunt easy, this is not raid hardcore at all"

It's almost like the community isn't a hive mind, and different people have different opinions!

[Hyrist]

Palace is not savage content though?

This would be incorrect.

The 'Story' portion ends at floor 100. So you may consider the following 100 floors to be 'Savage' content, as it will provide no new story.

Which is the same format as Savage, when you think about it. But, like Creator, it also features no true gearcheck and is mainly skill based - so the best players are likely to push through it quite well. Except we do know that Palace of the Dead has more random elements in it, so those complaining about 'too easy' will have some true difficulty and outright denials to contend with - answering a lot of requests we had earlier on content.

I quit the concept of being hardcore endgame long before FFXIV 1.0 came into play - so take what I say with a grain of salt. But from previous game experiences, the OP's views are not reflected by the majority of even his niche, let alone the wider player base at large.

While challenge is always appreciated, it is not when it comes at the cost of fair gameplay and the inclusions of literal time-gates. The fact that this match was primarily a skillcheck will have likely come at the relief of most endgame players, and an affirmation of their feelings that a lot of the problems suffering raiding in the last couple cycles was due to bad tuning.

Yes, this will bring questions as to the longevity of content, questions that should be asked - but not at the cost of reintroducing the same innate flaws that have plagued raiding for generations - where clearing has nothing to do with good skill and everything to do with not grinding content to the point of becoming stale.

Many will view this as a step in the right direction, however - let us be clear, this is only a step. There are many more challenges that yet need to be addressed to make the game truly healthy.

[Morningstar1337]

It's almost like the community isn't a hive mind, and different people have different opinions!

In that case I took it upon myself to make a poll to see if the community what the community really wants
http://www.strawpoll.me/11331408

I would also appreciate it if people explain their reasoning for their choice (and also post the poll on r/ffxiv so that we can get a clear picture)

[Kaurie]

In that case I took it upon myself to make a poll to see if the community what the community really wants
http://www.strawpoll.me/11331408

I would also appreciate it if people explain their reasoning for their choice (and also post the poll on r/ffxiv so that we can get a clear picture)

I voted for Final Coil, but having 2 options was fairly limiting.

Personally, I'd like to have a system like WoW - where there is 4 levels of difficulty. My preference is challenging, but forgiving. Something that requires coordination and practice, but doesn't require you to wipe for months.

In previous tiers, my team only made it to 15% of A7S, and had just cleared A2S before Midas dropped. We did start Gordias late, but Midas we started right away. Obviously, my team is not top tier - but we're not horrible players. I have a feeling that the difficulty of Creator will be more our speed, but we haven't been in yet.

As an aside, the current vote results are 85% Final Coil and 15% Gordias (Savage)

[Mugiawara]

Awesome i think i will actually look for a static this time around.... I've had no desire to run savage content in a long time.... looking forward to it....

This post is a good thing. If Gordias was too hard and Statics were breaking, then yea...I'm all in for hard content for raiders but when static's
are breaking left and right, hows that fun for anyone? Trying to rotate and find replacements all day?
Also, the nerf in Savage difficulty should bring a lot more raiders into the mix so it'll build the community back.

OP, those people pretty much live for this stuff, so what was 'easy' for them won't be for everyone else.

[Belhi]

I voted for Final Coil, but having 2 options was fairly limiting.

Personally, I'd like to have a system like WoW - where there is 4 levels of difficulty. My preference is challenging, but forgiving. Something that requires coordination and practice, but doesn't require you to wipe for months.

In previous tiers, my team only made it to 15% of A7S, and had just cleared A2S before Midas dropped. We did start Gordias late, but Midas we started right away. Obviously, my team is not top tier - but we're not horrible players. I have a feeling that the difficulty of Creator will be more our speed, but we haven't been in yet.

As an aside, the current vote results are 85% Final Coil and 15% Gordias (Savage)

Early in HW life cycle there was an interview with Yoshi P where he was asked about the two difficulties and he said he would prefer 3 but doesn't have the manpower to do more than two. As a result he does one tier for everyone and one for proper raiding.

From a purely metric perspective the ultra hard teir of content would not be the highest priority as the number of players who would truly engage and invest a lot of time on it is relatively small. Case in point, a rough census using Loadstone data indicated that roughly only 1%, if that, of the NA player base actually finished Gordias Savage before Midas came out and while its likely higher, I suspect even Midas Savage wouldn't top 10% before Creator.

From that perspective Normal mode is a much better investment. The number of players actually completing and even regularly doing the Normal mode almost certainly massively exceeds those actually in the higher level progression.

[AerisVII]

Please Please Please

Yosh-p and dev team please don't listen to the vocal 1% hardcore community that is saying the creator is to easy like you did when they were saying the same about final coil.

[viewtyjoe]

Personally, I'd like to have a system like WoW - where there is 4 levels of difficulty. My preference is challenging, but forgiving. Something that requires coordination and practice, but doesn't require you to wipe for months.

I'm in agreement here. I'm sad that the dev team feels that they are unable to deliver a 3 or more tier system which would help mitigate a good chunk of the "Is it hard enough?" debate that goes on every new raid cycle. Something like current normal (for people who just want the story and such, introduce mechanics), something like Creator (Savage) (easy enough to build statics and let more casual or less skilled groups build confidence), and something more like Midas or Gordias (Savage) that is mechanically similar but with challenging DPS and healing checks that is built to stretch the limits of available gear.

The issue is always what rewards to give, because I feel that the current 30 item level spread within a raid tier is already to broad. Maybe drop it to 20 item level spread?

Normal Gear -> Tomestone Gear (+5) -> Upgraded Tome Gear/Mid Gear (+15) -> Savage Gear (+20)

This would also potentially allow for some interesting optimization choices between three gear sets, as 5 item level isn't as bad from a weight perspective usually.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

As long as the fights are fun - and so far, for me, they are - I greatly prefer this difficulty over Gordias/Midas. I don't want to grind hard on only four bosses for a month+ of progression. Rather than raising the difficulty for the savage raid (I think Creator is probably just about right), they should raise the difficulty of a lot of the other content in the game to match normal mode.

Agreed. I haven't gone into Savage yet, so I'll omit it from the equation, but what I want for the expansion is as followed.

- Increased dungeon difficulty; not to any substantial degree. Just enough to warrant paying attention. Instead of artificial gates forcing tanks to pull in small groups, make the mobs hit hard enough they simply can't mass pull without having a solid knowledge of cooldown usage and a healer who can handle it all. Essentially, big pulls becomes an individual accomplishment everyone can theoretically obtain. Not just something we eventually do because the dungeons are so laughably easy.

- Add a third, legitimately "expert" dungeon. This is the dungeon that hurts. Perhaps experiment a little by make boss encounters dynamic moments. PotD may actually attempt this at some point. Regardless, I would love to see not only a challenging third option, but one where the boss fight could happen anywhere. Like of it like the tonberry who chases you.

- Bump up Normal mode's difficulty. I have long felt the massive gap between Normal and Savage this raid tier is what contributed to the sharp decline of Savage participation. With only two difficulties, normal suffers the same way dungeons do. It's just too easy outside of the first week when people are figuring out the mechanics.

- Lastly, expand the raid tier to six fights. Simply put, we need more content here. By adding an additional four fights to the raid, you can steadily build up the difficulty between all of them.

Afterwards, they need to overhaul the reward structure for Savage. There just isn't enough incentive to farm it.

[Kaurie]

Early in HW life cycle there was an interview with Yoshi P where he was asked about the two difficulties and he said he would prefer 3 but doesn't have the manpower to do more than two. As a result he does one tier for everyone and one for proper raiding.

From a purely metric perspective the ultra hard teir of content would not be the highest priority as the number of players who would truly engage and invest a lot of time on it is relatively small. Case in point, a rough census using Loadstone data indicated that roughly only 1%, if that, of the NA player base actually finished Gordias Savage before Midas came out and while its likely higher, I suspect even Midas Savage wouldn't top 10% before Creator.

From that perspective Normal mode is a much better investment. The number of players actually completing and even regularly doing the Normal mode almost certainly massively exceeds those actually in the higher level progression.

Yeah, I remember that interview. I disagree that he doesn't have the manpower to provide 3+ difficulties though. They already have a lot of the work done (setting, animations, graphics etc.). Then, they also spend a lot of resources on content which feels less important (at least to me). For example, Aquariums seem entirely too complex for what should be a simple housing item. Things like LoV, PotD and Diadem are convoluted, unloved and likely took a lot of dev resources. Take those resources and re-allocate. Finally, I'd say that they waste a lot of resources re-inventing the wheel so-to-speak every patch. Each patch the difficulty is off, people complain, the analyze and re-design and put out something new - this is likely resulting in a lot of wasted time.

They also could probably implement a middle tier pretty easily. Design a hard gordias-style savage and then just lower some outgoing damage, lower dps checks and maybe remove a mechanic or two. You don't need to design anything new, just trim some of the stuff that makes it as hard as it is.