Difficulty format for Normal and Savage will remain in 4.0

[loreleidiangelo]

Yeah, they kinda dropped the ball with dungeons, IMO. Great way to introduce steady difficulty climbs in a manner that doesn't require wrangling together 7 other people with the same schedule and relative skill level as you for x number of hours y times a week. Not sure if I'll ever pick up raiding in WoW, the game I'm playing now, but it's nice to know that if I don't I still have heroic dungeons/mythic/mythic+ dungeons that I can do with my small guild for some challenge, and reasonably decent gear. There's also the boss world quests and random named elites and stuff too, though they kind of took the fun out of elites by making their good drops one time only.

The difficulty of Wiping City was fairly promising, though, so I hope the devs are looking at some ways of making the PUGable content in this game have some teeth. It really SHOULD, considering it basically hands out raid-tier gear to anyone who cares enough to queue for it.

[Yukiko]

As example:

You meet the Boss in first Room, small tiny Robot with just a charge "punch" -> R1 (Room 1)
Simple mechanic and you can experiment different strategies with many possibilities in which jobs you take.
After beating it, he runs back to the next room.
Your Progress is save once beaten you can always start from there but you must not (farming gear for friends)
Charge is a "onehit death" to the first player in line (you can sacrifice yourself to protect someone if needed)
No weekly lockouts or any other of that crap!

You can break and rest until your static meets again, maybe on the next day to follow the robot into room 2 -> R2
The Robot now changed, added Wings and can fly (you will see when fighting him).
Lets say the wings giving him a divebomb like mechanic in ADD to the already known charge punch.
For now (he just uses 2 mechanics) you can let him do it randomly.
The new thing is one player gets a marker and then you see the animation about the boss flying (you cant attack him).
The marked player must MOVE to prevent damage and you may can add AoE range, so the marked player have to split from the others.
I am not a friend of onehit death mechanics, but to make it simple for explaining just lets say every mechanic is a onehit thing.
After beating, its same as before, he could escape to the next room...
Same with loot as before its free for the players to choose how fast they farm!
Server first groups will go in every day while others may just go in once a week, let them they dont destroy anything!
Allow freely helping others (carrying or such) but dont allow content selling (carrying for real money or gil) - partyfinder as example, then they cant trade

Now in Room 3 he will get again something new, lets say a Plasma Gun (shared damage) -> R3
The key is to NOT change the previously learned mechanics or you throw away every progress made so far!
If you dont see the little trick i made: Wings (= spread) but Plasma Gun (=gather)
The Charge Punsh is meant to kill one (you have to revive) later one i thought to add some Buffs where you can pick it up and get invulnerability for a short time to take the punch.
The idea behind is, if you have about 5+ or even 10+ mechanics maybe some simultaneously, you may add some "helpers"
However that all depends in which direction you gonna design the fight.

This is just an example and was made to show a common learning curve. While server first groups are bored with R1 to R5, they gonna like R6 to R10...
The Key is that if there are 3 mechanics you must only learn one new, in add the more you move up in Rooms the easier you can handle Room 1 mechanics because you have it in the other rooms too...
While the brain focus to learn the new mechanic it can rely on the already learned mechanic counters and in result its less frustration and stress because you "know what to do"

If you cheese Room 1 with 8 Healers, who cares? You cant do it forever in the following rooms ... if players like to cheese, let them!
Why not, Room 1 with a lot reviving... well, that's why I mentioned to add later some buffs because you can not keep that up for all rooms...

It was a very very simple example and needs a lot balancing too, but it shows pretty good the difference to what we have in FFXIV and why there is so much frustration!
SE keeps some mechanics "same" spread over more bosses but the problem is there is way too much "new" stuff.
You can not expect from a player who plays 1h a day to learn a dungeon with 5 bossmonsters within a month.
Yoshi-P himself said: Watching a video is one thing, but succeed the same way as seen in the video is way harder!

Just for the sceptic: I said its just a simple small EXAMPLE - imagine 100 rooms where the Robot adds and loses Robot parts (he is not always using the 100 mechanics) and then imagine YOU can influence what the Robot does depending which Room you go "next" (example: if you can choose between 3 doors, please NO RNG)

[KarstenS]

I wonder where we talked about "your" static, i thought we were talking in general about the playerbase and content

It was about the question: "is it possible to recover?"

We were able to recover even with less than min iLvl. We are no world/datacenter/server first group or close to them.

This is the proof for the answer being: Yes.

[Yukiko]

(..) We are no world/datacenter/server first group or close to them. (..)

Thats where you are wrong, from the viewpoint of "Kallera" as example you ARE near server first kill groups!
You said yourself "we reach AS8 each week"... that makes your group one of the very few who actually can REACH that level...
Sure, you can lower the viepoint when saying you just compare with all groups who reach AS8, then your group isnt near the top because you havnt cleard yet...

Its like saying you are at rank 250 of 5000 (one server)
Or if you say you are at rank 250 of 500 (those who can reach AS8)
While compared with the server you are on top ranks, its is a bit different when comparing with the others

[Brian_]

Nor did I say recovery was entirely impossible. Only that the margin for error is exceptionally low-- to the extent very few people can adjust.

Any mention of Elysium is wholly irrelevant. World Progression players are an anomaly. You cannot balance content around their skill level because the overwhelming majority will never come close to it, which is what we've seen throughout Alexander. These are players who dedicate absurdly long hours daily to clearing all of Savage. Furthermore, you are mistaken. Layla's group all had various bits of upgraded gear, most impossibly their weapons, before clearing Brute Justice. They weren't going in at ilvl 220. At least once they reached A7S. I believe they farmed Nidhogg some too.

Being able to execute a strategy and Savage having too narrow a margin are not mutually exclusive. If one person messes up what you've outlined, you'll likely wipe. None of this means people complaining over Savage's difficulty want to see it nerfed into the ground, but it does denote the aforementioned narrow room for error. People, on average, do not like content where slight mistakes force them to do it all over again, especially when it wasn't their mistake.

And here is your own fallacy. Don't presume because people haven't been in the fight themselves, they do not know of it or have not spoken to people who have cleared with similar opinions. That's like saying you need to finish an entire game to have an opinion on it. What we do know is Savage clear rates are abysmal. To insinuate difficulty is not a factor among its perceived flaws (rewards and etc), is a bit disingenuous.

For the record, I wouldn't actually fancy nerfs on Savage. In fact, I wish they would upscale dungeons or, at the very least, Weeping City became the base level standard. I'm coming at this more from a why people aren't going into Savage approach.

You are not comprehending anything I am saying. On multiple points, you make the false claim that you are saying something different when you are not.

The margin of error is not exceptionally low. As I have detailed, when you can have multiple deaths, completely botch mechanics, and still easily clear, that is not exceptionally low. Especially when you consider that this is supposed to be our hardest content.

And, I'll repeat myself about Elysium again because you just can't understand the point. Elysium is very relevant because they set the standard for what is possible. In terms of skill, they are the 10 on that scale from 0 to 10. But, in terms of gear they are the 0 on that scale from 0 to 10. They show you the minimum combination of those 2 things needed to clear the content.

I thought that when I gave very specific examples of why the gear matters and where it supplants skill, you would get the point. Apparently not.

My static is nowhere near as skilled as Elysium's world first group. But, we still cleared. Why? Because gear and strategy optimization that come with time make up for skill. We reached that minimum combination by using gear, strategy, and practice to offset the difference in skill.

And while Elyisum did have some i240 gear from raid drops, they certainly weren't anywhere close to being full i240 or even i230 overall. Certain members of their raid group like Miunih were basically full i220 except for the weapon.

And again, you repeat the fallacy. One person messing up will not wipe you for the large majority of mechanics.

And what you claim to be my fallacy is not a fallacy. When something is true and based on facts, it's not a fallacy. Based on what these people have said and their lodestone profiles, they have no first hand experience with the content and show little knowledge of the general topic. Quite frankly, you don't either based on your posting. You didn't even know Elysium cleared A8S well before Nidhogg was released. For Christ's sake they cleared probably 3 months before.

And disingenuous? I stated in clear words that I never said the clear rates of Savage were okay. I am saying that you people are lying about the margins of error and the possibility of recovery.

If your approach is to increase Savage's accessibility, supporting fallacies which propagate fear and hatred of the content is hurting just as much as the lack of a proper progression ladder.

[ADVSS]

well as long as the clear rates are as dismal as they are, we probably wont be worrying about a raid in 5.0 at this rate. Keep the formula up, its working pretty damn well. Arguing about people who clear or dont doesnt matter, you forget theyre trying to motivate people who dont, to want to. But of course you totally neglected the entire conversation to prove you can recover from one mechanic or another, then use your personal experiences, which is fine we all do, to assume its the same for everyone. you win lanners every first time you clear, the guy next to you has to get 99 totems to even get a chance at theirs. Either way, turning the OTHER side down is cool, we'll let SE see the formula is so flawless and stop funding raiding altogether if this cycle continues with these "exceptionally great" results.

I mean this was a discussion rooted in things said during that specific interview right? So I thought this was a discussion on how they could help make raiding better more desirable, more motivating, and less intimidating. I guess the important thing is its completely pug'able, people who cleared can tell ya from experience even, they didnt have a static that clears every week, we're all delusional.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You are not comprehending anything I am saying. On multiple points, you make the false claim that you are saying something different when you are not.

The margin of error is not exceptionally low. As I have detailed, when you can have multiple deaths, completely botch mechanics, and still easily clear, that is not exceptionally low. Especially when you consider that this is supposed to be our hardest content.

And, I'll repeat myself about Elysium again because you just can't understand the point. Elysium is very relevant because they set the standard for what is possible. In terms of skill, they are the 10 on that scale from 0 to 10. But, in terms of gear they are the 0 on that scale from 0 to 10. They show you the minimum combination of those 2 things needed to clear the content.

I thought that when I gave very specific examples of why the gear matters and where it supplants skill, you would get the point. Apparently not.

My static is nowhere near as skilled as Elysium's world first group. But, we still cleared. Why? Because gear and strategy optimization that come with time make up for skill. We reached that minimum combination by using gear, strategy, and practice to offset the difference in skill.

And while Elyisum did have some i240 gear from raid drops, they certainly weren't anywhere close to being full i240 or even i230 overall. Certain members of their raid group like Miunih were basically full i220 except for the weapon.

And again, you repeat the fallacy. One person messing up will not wipe you for the large majority of mechanics.

And what you claim to be my fallacy is not a fallacy. When something is true and based on facts, it's not a fallacy. Based on what these people have said and their lodestone profiles, they have no first hand experience with the content and show little knowledge of the general topic. Quite frankly, you don't either based on your posting. You didn't even know Elysium cleared A8S well before Nidhogg was released. For Christ's sake they cleared probably 3 months before.

And disingenuous? I stated in clear words that I never said the clear rates of Savage were okay. I am saying that you people are lying about the margins of error and the possibility of recovery.

If your approach is to increase Savage's accessibility, supporting fallacies which propagate fear and hatred of the content is hurting just as much as the lack of a proper progression ladder.

No, I disagree with you. Welcome to opinions. Yours is not the end all be all despite your assertion otherwise. The fact you cite any portion Savage beyond maybe A5S as "easily cleared" suggests you're approaching this from a hardcore raider's mentality because very few people would describe anything in Savage as "easy." Nonetheless, you can mess up to an extent. I did not dispute otherwise. But that only comes from max level gear and a marathon of hours. Having to know precise details of an entire fight before you can reasonably lose one person along the way is a low margin for error.

And you are once again basing content development around an anomaly. Elysium is better than the vast majority of players. What they accomplish is irrelevant to the overall raid community because they're a step above the norm. You cannot develop content around them.

I mistyped and forgot to edit that out. Sue me. The fallacy remains as you are presuming people's knowledge based solely on first hand experience. What we do know is people aren't doing Savage. Evidently, a problem exists. I cited your overall stance disingenuous because you seem wholly against even acknowledging difficulty may be a factor in why clear rates are abysmal. Is it the deciding factor? No. As I already stated, I think it could be one among many. But it'd be naive to not consider it.

If these were merely baseless, we wouldn't keep seeing complaints crop up. No one is demanding Savage be nerfed into the ground. There is a reason, however, Coil tends to be favored.

[Yeol]

Please keep in mind that not all players play on same level as you. If you want to have it all (story and gear) in one difficulty, then what is left for the average player?
Don't forget that they are the reason we got two levels of difficulty in the first place. Which means their numbers are bigger, much bigger than the number of raiders and endgame players.

It's 10% V.S 90%. In the normal version you get the story and in the savage version you get gears. They made it this way to try and please both sides as much as they can.

The only way I can think of to fix this. Is release normal mode 2 patches after savage. (giving enough time for raiders to see story and get gear before everyone else).
Unless the 90% open their mouths again then it will remain the same, two difficulties will be available at the same time.

[Yukiko]

(..) What we do know is people aren't doing Savage. (..)

Just like to add what we also know:
Alex Savage destroyed many statics!
Most statics who had NO problems doing Coil are now splitted and dead because of alex...
Reasons are different but never ending discussion why it was a wipe and because its edge dancing most of the time was oftn one of those reasons.

You know the word "burn out" ?

[Brian_]

No, I disagree with you. Welcome to opinions. Yours is not the end all be all despite your assertion otherwise. The fact you cite any portion Savage beyond maybe A5S as "easily cleared" suggests you're approaching this from a hardcore raider's mentality because very few people would describe anything in Savage as "easy." Nonetheless, you can mess up to an extent. I did not dispute otherwise. But that only comes from max level gear and a marathon of hours. Having to know precise details of an entire fight before you can reasonably lose one person along the way is a low margin for error.

And you are once again basing content development around an anomaly. Elysium is better than the vast majority of players. What they accomplish is irrelevant to the overall raid community because they're a step above the norm. You cannot develop content around them.

I mistyped and forgot to edit that out. Sue me. The fallacy remains as you are presuming people's knowledge based solely on first hand experience. What we do know is people aren't doing Savage. Evidently, a problem exists. I cited your overall stance disingenuous because you seem wholly against even acknowledging difficulty may be a factor in why clear rates are abysmal. Is it the deciding factor? No. As I already stated, I think it could be one among many. But it'd be naive to not consider it.

If these were merely baseless, we wouldn't keep seeing complaints crop up. No one is demanding Savage be nerfed into the ground. There is a reason, however, Coil tends to be favored.

Disagreeing with me is fine. Disagreeing with facts is stupidity.

I've never asserted my opinion is the end all be all. I've only implored people to stop ignoring actual facts and spreading lies and ignorance.

I'm not presuming people's lack of knowledge based on a lack first hand experience. My conclusion is based on that in combination what they've actually said. If you actually said correct things based on facts, I wouldn't care about your experience. Being right is being right and facts are facts, experience or no experience.

You continue to fail in understanding Elysium's relevance. I am not saying the content should be developed based on Elysium. SE tunes their content based on their own internal numbers. I am saying that Elysium sets the actual and initial standards for what needs to be done to clear. If you still can't understand the difference, I guess I give up. This is like talking to a brick wall.

And, if you want to talk about a topic, you might want to actually know the facts about what you're talking about.

I'm not being disingenuous about the difficulty. That would imply that I've actually talked at all about it or implied that it wasn't a contributing factor to the inaccessibility of Savage. I haven't because the difficulty of the content hasn't been the point of my posts. As others have pointed out, the difficulty of a fight is only loosely related to the nature of its mechanics.