Difficulty format for Normal and Savage will remain in 4.0

[Brian_]

snip.

It's fine to clamor around the "git gud" mentality, however we're looking at a 1.16% clear rate. That is utterly abysmal to the extent the devs are literally wasting their time with Savage. Demands for player improvement to this extreme is being met with "Nah. It's not fun. I'll do something else." No matter how you divvy it up, people rarely fancy instant death mechanics or being routinely punished due to a razor thin margins for error. Citing Elysium means little because they are a step above almost everyone else. You do not balance content around hardcore players, especially world progression types. They make up among the smallest percentage of your fanbase.

You can blame NA/EU individuality all you fancy, but there comes a point when you have to look at the content itself. If enough people aren't enjoying it, then it's failed to accomplish the intended goal. NA/EU tend to be far more picky regarding their content consumption hence why grinds are frequently vilified this side of the ocean yet more acceptable in JP. Square has to cater to both mindsets, lest they continue to see content ignored by a massive portion of their audience.

I never said the clear rates for Savage were fine.

I was saying that it's a fallacy that you can't recover from mistakes in Savage, that Savage is just a game of memorization that trivializes strategy, that you can't carry people through Savage, raid with who you want, or even PuG it.

And, my point about Elysium seems to have been misinterpreted multiple times. I thought my point was quite clear. Even during world-first progression with 20 less ilevels worth of gear, Elysium could afford to make mistakes and use an arguably inefficient strategy. Yes, they're world first players. But, you have 20 more ilevels worth of gear and significantly more optimized strategies.

For example, I'm a mid-core raider in a mid-core static. We use strategies to negate mechanical errors that Elysium's world-first team couldn't do for the lack of gear. We cheese P1 discoid orbs and wipe stacks with missile stacking. That's something you can only do with higher eHP from your left sides. We tank LB3 to trivialize the stacking mechanics in intermission 2 so you basically only need to worry about the enumeration positioning. That's a strategy Elysium couldn't do because they needed their LB3 to push DPS on Winged Justice. We sac our water in P7 because even with weakness, they have enough HP to live through J-waves until we kill. That's another strategy Elysium (arguably) couldn't do.

Yes, you have to look at the content. Unfortunately, very few in this topic actually are. The majority are just lying through their teeth about it or are horribly misinformed. If you want to actually fix Savage, you might want to start by understanding the truth about the content first. Most people here don't do the content, don't understand the content, and feel like they're qualified to talk about how it should change. They don't even know what they're changing.

[Lambdafish]

If you want to actually fix Savage, you might want to start by understanding the truth about the content first. Most people here don't do the content, don't understand the content, and feel like they're qualified to talk about how it should change. They don't even know what they're changing.

"If you give a man a podium, he will naturally tell the world that he knows best"

This argument is true though, while savage does have many memorization mechanics, there are so many points where my group has said "How can we make this mechanic more manageable?" or "I need to have more spacial awareness to deal with X mechanic" there are many different strategies to a fight, and honestly... if all the fights were just perfectionist, muscle memory challenges, raiding would be so much easier than it is (coil was more memory based than alexander is, and that is why coil is easier, and also why T9 is the most difficult turn).

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I never said the clear rates for Savage were fine.

I was saying that it's a fallacy that you can't recover from mistakes in Savage, that Savage is just a game of memorization that trivializes strategy, that you can't carry people through Savage, raid with who you want, or even PuG it.

And, my point about Elysium seems to have been misinterpreted multiple times. I thought my point was quite clear. Even during world-first progression with 20 less ilevels worth of gear, Elysium could afford to make mistakes and use an arguably inefficient strategy. Yes, they're world first players. But, you have 20 more ilevels worth of gear and significantly more optimized strategies.

For example, I'm a mid-core raider in a mid-core static. We use strategies to negate mechanical errors that Elysium's world-first team couldn't do for the lack of gear. We cheese P1 discoid orbs and wipe stacks with missile stacking. That's something you can only do with higher eHP from your left sides. We tank LB3 to trivialize the stacking mechanics in intermission 2 so you basically only need to worry about the enumeration positioning. That's a strategy Elysium couldn't do because they needed their LB3 to push DPS on Winged Justice. We sac our water in P7 because even with weakness, they have enough HP to live through J-waves until we kill. That's another strategy Elysium (arguably) couldn't do.

Yes, you have to look at the content. Unfortunately, very few in this topic actually are. The majority are just lying through their teeth about it or are horribly misinformed. If you want to actually fix Savage, you might want to start by understanding the truth about the content first. Most people here don't do the content, don't understand the content, and feel like they're qualified to talk about how it should change. They don't even know what they're changing.

Nor did I say recovery was entirely impossible. Only that the margin for error is exceptionally low-- to the extent very few people can adjust.

Any mention of Elysium is wholly irrelevant. World Progression players are an anomaly. You cannot balance content around their skill level because the overwhelming majority will never come close to it, which is what we've seen throughout Alexander. These are players who dedicate absurdly long hours daily to clearing all of Savage. Furthermore, you are mistaken. Layla's group all had various bits of upgraded gear, most impossibly their weapons, before clearing Brute Justice. They weren't going in at ilvl 220. At least once they reached A7S. I believe they farmed Nidhogg some too.

Being able to execute a strategy and Savage having too narrow a margin are not mutually exclusive. If one person messes up what you've outlined, you'll likely wipe. None of this means people complaining over Savage's difficulty want to see it nerfed into the ground, but it does denote the aforementioned narrow room for error. People, on average, do not like content where slight mistakes force them to do it all over again, especially when it wasn't their mistake.

And here is your own fallacy. Don't presume because people haven't been in the fight themselves, they do not know of it or have not spoken to people who have cleared with similar opinions. That's like saying you need to finish an entire game to have an opinion on it. What we do know is Savage clear rates are abysmal. To insinuate difficulty is not a factor among its perceived flaws (rewards and etc), is a bit disingenuous.

For the record, I wouldn't actually fancy nerfs on Savage. In fact, I wish they would upscale dungeons or, at the very least, Weeping City became the base level standard. I'm coming at this more from a why people aren't going into Savage approach.

Also, in terms of clear rate in Savage. Isn't it being a low percentage...a good thing? I can understand if the content is unfairly balanced and not fair, but Midas despite being mechanic heavy, is still a fair tier. Most MMO's do not get over 10% of clears on their hardest content unless the game was built to be easy.

If you want higher percentage clear rate on Savage, then you need to have content that properly works you into it. Other MMO's pull this off easily, but SE has the hardest time doing this. It is either content that is so easy that you can get carried and not even need any relevant gear to win, or very difficult in Savage. There is little to nothing that gets you ready for it. Learning curves are needed, not adjustments to Savage raid.

If dungeons kept it's difficulty level similar to 2.0's Amdapor Keep and Wanderer's Palace before their nerf (where not too difficult to overcome, but still have to think and perform mechanics and properly coordinate with your group), relic quests that have meaningful content, 24-man raids kept a difficulty similar to Weeping City, made Alex(Normal) at a maybe slightly less harder than FCoB mode(one that gear in time can make much easier), then Savage mode that really tests your skills.

Just because someone may be a casual player, doesn't mean they want it easy. They just want the content to be accessible. That is FFXIV's greatest strength and instead of trying to make things challenging despite having a nice accessibility structure, they decide to dumb down content each patch just so they can see numbers rise. I'm not saying everything needs to be difficult either, but they need to do a much better job at motivating players to get better. Because besides Primal EX and Savage raids, there is absolutely no reason to.

To an extent, yes. Unfortunately, Savage rates are too low. You cannot have content virtually no one touches, otherwise you've essentially wasted time and money developing it. Hence why the devs have openly acknowledged this precise problem. What that exact problem is, however, remains open to interpretation. I, personally, see it as a combination of difficulty and lackluster rewards. Although I also agree with your point further on. The overall ease of FFXIV in general doesn't cultivate much reason to actually improve unless you want to.

We desperately need a midcore to better ease people into Savage raiding. Frankly, Normal mode should also be harder. Not to any substantial degree, but enough you aren't able to faceroll it like we do now.

Square seems wholly afraid to motivate people. I can appreciate not wanting to gate story behind immensely difficult content due to how many people play only for that reason. But they certainly could offer better rewards and/or ilvl sync endgame content so you cannot just wait a patch cycle or two and cheese through the whole thing. I mean, Midas basically offered a challenge, dyeable gear and a minion.

[Velhart]

To an extent, yes. Unfortunately, Savage rates are too low. You cannot have content virtually no one touches, otherwise you've essentially wasted time and money developing it. Hence why the devs have openly acknowledged this precise problem. What that exact problem is, however, remains open to interpretation. I, personally, see it as a combination of difficulty and lackluster rewards. Although I also agree with your point further on. The overall ease of FFXIV in general doesn't cultivate much reason to actually improve unless you want to.

We desperately need a midcore to better ease people into Savage raiding. Frankly, Normal mode should also be harder. Not to any substantial degree, but enough you aren't able to faceroll it like we do now.

Square seems wholly afraid to motivate people. I can appreciate not wanting to gate story behind immensely difficult content due to how many people play only for that reason. But they certainly could offer better rewards and/or ilvl sync endgame content so you cannot just wait a patch cycle or two and cheese through the whole thing. I mean, Midas basically offered a challenge, dyeable gear and a minion.

We need higher activity in Savage, not more wins necessarily. Savage activity is much lower than I seen in MMO's because the learning curve is basically not there. Everything is ridiculously easy to beat in the game, then you go do Savage and then the game goes from Very Easy mode to the Very Hard setting. At least WoW in the WoTLK days had Heroic Dungeons and a proper normal mode raid that properly worked you into Heroic Raids. Its a huge unbalanced mess and I guarantee fixing the learning curve and finding ways to motivate people to challenge themselves will bring numbers up.

SE's philosophy: Make it easier till more people can do it. Numbers go higher!

Philosophy that should be taken: We need to adjust content where working towards Savage raiding feels more natural. Numbers go higher!

I am not even talking about anything real hard. Dungeons can be just difficult enough where people at least need to think and work with mechanics, coordinating with a group. I hate to keep comparing to WoW, but during the WoTLK days it did it's learning curve expertly. People wanted to do Normal Mode raiding and jumped right into Heroic once they beat Normal. Heroic Dungeons and trial fights were great learning tools jumping into raids.

[Brian_]

Nor did I say recovery was entirely impossible. Only that the margin for error is exceptionally low-- to the extent very few people can adjust.

Any mention of Elysium is wholly irrelevant. World Progression players are an anomaly. You cannot balance content around their skill level because the overwhelming majority will never come close to it, which is what we've seen throughout Alexander. These are players who dedicate absurdly long hours daily to clearing all of Savage. Furthermore, you are mistaken. Layla's group all had various bits of upgraded gear, most impossibly their weapons, before clearing Brute Justice. They weren't going in at ilvl 220. At least once they reached A7S. I believe they farmed Nidhogg some too.

Being able to execute a strategy and Savage having too narrow a margin are not mutually exclusive. If one person messes up what you've outlined, you'll likely wipe. None of this means people complaining over Savage's difficulty want to see it nerfed into the ground, but it does denote the aforementioned narrow room for error. People, on average, do not like content where slight mistakes force them to do it all over again, especially when it wasn't their mistake.

And here is your own fallacy. Don't presume because people haven't been in the fight themselves, they do not know of it or have not spoken to people who have cleared with similar opinions. That's like saying you need to finish an entire game to have an opinion on it. What we do know is Savage clear rates are abysmal. To insinuate difficulty is not a factor among its perceived flaws (rewards and etc), is a bit disingenuous.

For the record, I wouldn't actually fancy nerfs on Savage. In fact, I wish they would upscale dungeons or, at the very least, Weeping City became the base level standard. I'm coming at this more from a why people aren't going into Savage approach.

You are not comprehending anything I am saying. On multiple points, you make the false claim that you are saying something different when you are not.

The margin of error is not exceptionally low. As I have detailed, when you can have multiple deaths, completely botch mechanics, and still easily clear, that is not exceptionally low. Especially when you consider that this is supposed to be our hardest content.

And, I'll repeat myself about Elysium again because you just can't understand the point. Elysium is very relevant because they set the standard for what is possible. In terms of skill, they are the 10 on that scale from 0 to 10. But, in terms of gear they are the 0 on that scale from 0 to 10. They show you the minimum combination of those 2 things needed to clear the content.

I thought that when I gave very specific examples of why the gear matters and where it supplants skill, you would get the point. Apparently not.

My static is nowhere near as skilled as Elysium's world first group. But, we still cleared. Why? Because gear and strategy optimization that come with time make up for skill. We reached that minimum combination by using gear, strategy, and practice to offset the difference in skill.

And while Elyisum did have some i240 gear from raid drops, they certainly weren't anywhere close to being full i240 or even i230 overall. Certain members of their raid group like Miunih were basically full i220 except for the weapon.

And again, you repeat the fallacy. One person messing up will not wipe you for the large majority of mechanics.

And what you claim to be my fallacy is not a fallacy. When something is true and based on facts, it's not a fallacy. Based on what these people have said and their lodestone profiles, they have no first hand experience with the content and show little knowledge of the general topic. Quite frankly, you don't either based on your posting. You didn't even know Elysium cleared A8S well before Nidhogg was released. For Christ's sake they cleared probably 3 months before.

And disingenuous? I stated in clear words that I never said the clear rates of Savage were okay. I am saying that you people are lying about the margins of error and the possibility of recovery.

If your approach is to increase Savage's accessibility, supporting fallacies which propagate fear and hatred of the content is hurting just as much as the lack of a proper progression ladder.

[ADVSS]

well as long as the clear rates are as dismal as they are, we probably wont be worrying about a raid in 5.0 at this rate. Keep the formula up, its working pretty damn well. Arguing about people who clear or dont doesnt matter, you forget theyre trying to motivate people who dont, to want to. But of course you totally neglected the entire conversation to prove you can recover from one mechanic or another, then use your personal experiences, which is fine we all do, to assume its the same for everyone. you win lanners every first time you clear, the guy next to you has to get 99 totems to even get a chance at theirs. Either way, turning the OTHER side down is cool, we'll let SE see the formula is so flawless and stop funding raiding altogether if this cycle continues with these "exceptionally great" results.

I mean this was a discussion rooted in things said during that specific interview right? So I thought this was a discussion on how they could help make raiding better more desirable, more motivating, and less intimidating. I guess the important thing is its completely pug'able, people who cleared can tell ya from experience even, they didnt have a static that clears every week, we're all delusional.

[Brian_]

well as long as the clear rates are as dismal as they are, we probably wont be worrying about a raid in 5.0 at this rate. Keep the formula up, its working pretty damn well. Arguing about people who clear or dont doesnt matter, you forget theyre trying to motivate people who dont, to want to. But of course you totally neglected the entire conversation to prove you can recover from one mechanic or another, then use your personal experiences, which is fine we all do, to assume its the same for everyone. you win lanners every first time you clear, the guy next to you has to get 99 totems to even get a chance at theirs. Either way, turning the OTHER side down is cool, we'll let SE see the formula is so flawless and stop funding raiding altogether if this cycle continues with these "exceptionally great" results.

I mean this was a discussion rooted in things said during that specific interview right? So I thought this was a discussion on how they could help make raiding better more desirable, more motivating, and less intimidating. I guess the important thing is its completely pug'able, people who cleared can tell ya from experience even, they didnt have a static that clears every week, we're all delusional.

Nice straw man you have there.

[ADVSS]

Nice straw man you have there.

your avatars hair is lovely, wanna get back to the subject or use a phrase ive read over a million times by people with no real retort?

Besides all the nonsense, thse were my opinions and im not changing them, nor do i care to... find a better angle.

[Brian_]

your avatars hair is lovely, wanna get back to the subject or use a phrase ive read over a million times by people with no real retort?

Besides all the nonsense, thse were my opinions and im not changing them, nor do i care to... find a better angle.

It is a real retort. I never said almost all the things you accused me of saying. So, what am I supposed to reply to? Your straw man?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You are not comprehending anything I am saying. On multiple points, you make the false claim that you are saying something different when you are not.

The margin of error is not exceptionally low. As I have detailed, when you can have multiple deaths, completely botch mechanics, and still easily clear, that is not exceptionally low. Especially when you consider that this is supposed to be our hardest content.

And, I'll repeat myself about Elysium again because you just can't understand the point. Elysium is very relevant because they set the standard for what is possible. In terms of skill, they are the 10 on that scale from 0 to 10. But, in terms of gear they are the 0 on that scale from 0 to 10. They show you the minimum combination of those 2 things needed to clear the content.

I thought that when I gave very specific examples of why the gear matters and where it supplants skill, you would get the point. Apparently not.

My static is nowhere near as skilled as Elysium's world first group. But, we still cleared. Why? Because gear and strategy optimization that come with time make up for skill. We reached that minimum combination by using gear, strategy, and practice to offset the difference in skill.

And while Elyisum did have some i240 gear from raid drops, they certainly weren't anywhere close to being full i240 or even i230 overall. Certain members of their raid group like Miunih were basically full i220 except for the weapon.

And again, you repeat the fallacy. One person messing up will not wipe you for the large majority of mechanics.

And what you claim to be my fallacy is not a fallacy. When something is true and based on facts, it's not a fallacy. Based on what these people have said and their lodestone profiles, they have no first hand experience with the content and show little knowledge of the general topic. Quite frankly, you don't either based on your posting. You didn't even know Elysium cleared A8S well before Nidhogg was released. For Christ's sake they cleared probably 3 months before.

And disingenuous? I stated in clear words that I never said the clear rates of Savage were okay. I am saying that you people are lying about the margins of error and the possibility of recovery.

If your approach is to increase Savage's accessibility, supporting fallacies which propagate fear and hatred of the content is hurting just as much as the lack of a proper progression ladder.

No, I disagree with you. Welcome to opinions. Yours is not the end all be all despite your assertion otherwise. The fact you cite any portion Savage beyond maybe A5S as "easily cleared" suggests you're approaching this from a hardcore raider's mentality because very few people would describe anything in Savage as "easy." Nonetheless, you can mess up to an extent. I did not dispute otherwise. But that only comes from max level gear and a marathon of hours. Having to know precise details of an entire fight before you can reasonably lose one person along the way is a low margin for error.

And you are once again basing content development around an anomaly. Elysium is better than the vast majority of players. What they accomplish is irrelevant to the overall raid community because they're a step above the norm. You cannot develop content around them.

I mistyped and forgot to edit that out. Sue me. The fallacy remains as you are presuming people's knowledge based solely on first hand experience. What we do know is people aren't doing Savage. Evidently, a problem exists. I cited your overall stance disingenuous because you seem wholly against even acknowledging difficulty may be a factor in why clear rates are abysmal. Is it the deciding factor? No. As I already stated, I think it could be one among many. But it'd be naive to not consider it.

If these were merely baseless, we wouldn't keep seeing complaints crop up. No one is demanding Savage be nerfed into the ground. There is a reason, however, Coil tends to be favored.