Forcing NA Duty Finder to be better, we need a grading system.

[mp-please]

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For a system like this to work, the algorithm would have to check what players are reacting for each move the target does.

1. Tank turns a tank buster into the melee. Melee die, and do less damage as result. Melee get a bad grade because of it.

Monster cast x skill
Expected result : only tank gets hit (cleave)
damage mitigation : +points
no party members get hit : +points
If 1-2 party members (non MT) get hit, - points to those players
If 3+ get hit, -points to the tank.

2. Subpar healers can't keep the group alive, dps die due to AOe's and have lower damage as a result. Again, bad grade received.

Monster cast y skill
Aoe damage, is there damage mitigation? +pts for whoever cast the mitigation skill
Heal and overheal is calculated on the next 5 seconds to provide a score.

3. Primal fight. 4 people dead. The remaining 4 are able to clear, but take more damage as result of the fight lasting longer. Again, receive a bad grade.

If death by unavoidable attack, healers get penalized, if death is by a avoidable attack, the players get penalized.

4. Poor DPS can't meet the DPS check. Healers and tanks die as result, get a bad grade for damage taken or not clearing.

It's a wipe, why would it matter? As long dps can see they were the cause of the wipe, the system is doing it's job.

[Gallus]

Maybe not a grading system, but kinda what we have at the end of a PVP match with a few inclusions? DPS done, healing done (not overhealing taken into account), maybe they could add damage mitigated (shields) and aggro generated by the tank and damage.
This way people could also give commendations based on objective data rather than "I liked this guy's glamour, gonna comm them".

[WinterLuna]

For a system like this to work, the algorithm would have to check what players are reacting for each move the target does.

Do you realise how much work this would entail? This means SE having to take into account every move of every boss and mob in every dungeon, trial and raid. The system would not only have to provide numbers for each player but then determine whether these numbers were acceptable in relation to each and every single mechanic that was executed.

Not to mention that parties react to mechanics differently and have their own strategies and neither has to be incorrect. Even if SE took upon this absolutely massive task, it still would never be 100% accurate.

[mp-please]

Do you realise how much work this would entail? This means SE having to take into account every move of every boss and mob in every dungeon, trial and raid. The system would not only have to provide numbers for each player but then determine whether these numbers were acceptable in relation to each and every single mechanic that was executed.

Not to mention that parties react to mechanics differently and have their own strategies and neither has to be incorrect. Even if SE took upon this absolutely massive task, it still would never be 100% accurate.

That was to show that the system is possible for those who want 100% precision on a dumb rating system. A ingame parse is more than enough to show who isn't pulling their weight.

[Kosmos992k]

You know where ranking and matching systems are good and useful?

Competitive games.

You know what isn't a competitive game?

Final Fantasy XIV.

I think that you have actually pointed to the problem and the answer in one fell swoop. This is not a competitive game, it's cooperative. So people need to learn to cooperate, share and be considerate of others (that goes in both directions). I find that the NA community is very competitive in it's attitude and outlook, and much less receptive to cooperation and collaboration.



All this stuff with even informal statics demanding certain things or else you can't join, or are kicked. The elitism, the intolerance of 'bads' or whatever. There is no spirit of community, no spirit of coaching each other or helping each other. If people don't meet expectations they are considered to be expendable. There is no cooperation, know your role and the fight, or you're vote kicked and abused. Make a mistake and you're gone. Apparently in our NA community cooperation means we work together as long as you do what I want. People are all about out doing each other, b eing first, and not being first is not good enough, etc...

If we could get this competitive mindset under control and acquire a far healthier view of cooperating and collaborating as a team on things, supporting each other within a team, and coaching rather than castigating, our community would be better off, as would our clear rates. As it is, a lot of players have left the end-game scene, or even the game as a consequence of this attitude. Unless we as a community can learn to be better and more welcoming to others, more accepting of a wide range of play styles and abilities, we are never going to improve clear rates, or grow populations.

I know this is all in 'general', clearly there are exceptions and many players who are awesome at cooperating, helping and coaching, but there are also a great many who are not.

[MihaelB]

Do you realise how much work this would entail? This means SE having to take into account every move of every boss and mob in every dungeon, trial and raid. The system would not only have to provide numbers for each player but then determine whether these numbers were acceptable in relation to each and every single mechanic that was executed.

Not to mention that parties react to mechanics differently and have their own strategies and neither has to be incorrect. Even if SE took upon this absolutely massive task, it still would never be 100% accurate.

Like I mentioned previously a few pages back, a parsing website already contains an algorithm for recording various factors. I'll add on that they record every factor regarding the boss, mob, mechanic, limit break, player cast spells, time duration of spells. every cast within the instance and more.

This is recorded via the packets in the game which already exists. What's necessary for further development is to create a formula for the data they already have in the game which in my opinion, personal experience in information technology project development and basic common sense, is not harder to develop than current content they put out.

We can basically even re-use the PVP damage interface and tweak it for the grade assessment.

Some other people have mentioned each instance/ duty may be different and yes this is true. It would be up to the development team to further decide if they want to tweak factors for each class based on the fight to assess the grading structure for the fight but that's us looking past the preliminary creation of the system.

Regards to 100% accuracy, the average sum of data in regards to your performance would be more than ideal of an accurate assessment in my personal opinion.

[RiceisNice]

I think that you have actually pointed to the problem and the answer in one fell swoop. This is not a competitive game, it's cooperative. So people need to learn to cooperate, share and be considerate of others (that goes in both directions). I find that the NA community is very competitive in it's attitude and outlook, and much less receptive to cooperation and collaboration.

It's both ways. You have individuals that stand by "I play how I want" or "Let them play how they want", which can be the the direct opposite of cooperation in party play. While an objective ranking system wouldn't do the trick by itself, there's certainly a lack of incentive to actually do so when half-afking is technically still passable. Promote better performance in party play, discourage disruptive/detrimental play. I mean even if NA is more compettiive by nature, wouldn't that be more of a incentive for them to try to perform better than their peers in runs, rather than be indifferent?

Do you realise how much work this would entail? This means SE having to take into account every move of every boss and mob in every dungeon, trial and raid. The system would not only have to provide numbers for each player but then determine whether these numbers were acceptable in relation to each and every single mechanic that was executed.

Even though most of the bossses and mobs (espesically the mobs) use the exact some attack mechanics in regards to telegraphed aoes, a "tank-check" weapon skill, and cleaves. Having objective metrics like damage dealt, enmity generated with damage dealt, and overhealing versus healing done and effective APM would be a good guideline for those measurements, and heck why not add in things like silencing (which alone would make mobs a bit more varied if they had more things that would allow for interrupts)

[Violyre]

If death by unavoidable attack, healers get penalized, if death is by a avoidable attack, the players get penalized

Hurr durr I'm going out of the healer's range because eff that guy, I want to get them penalized when the mob does Killemall Deathbringingko because it's unavoidable after I take a hit of Omfgwhydidntumove Umoron.

[Kosmos992k]

It's both ways. You have individuals that stand by "I play how I want" or "Let them play how they want", which can be the the direct opposite of cooperation in party play. While an objective ranking system wouldn't do the trick by itself, there's certainly a lack of incentive to actually do so when half-afking is technically still passable. Promote better performance in party play, discourage disruptive/detrimental play. I mean even if NA is more compettiive by nature, wouldn't that be more of a incentive for them to try to perform better than their peers in runs, rather than be indifferent?

Agreed, it's both ways, as I indicated. But with regard to the more competitive attitude. I hate to say this, but people in NA have attitudes towards cooperation, compromise and collaboration that are akin to saying that only losers do those things and Winners don't need to compromise, cooperate or collaborate. It's a very individualistic point of view that is detrimental to effective cooperation and team work. It's why teams can be very hostile environments to new people who are not quite at the same standard as others, for example.

I don't think that type of thinking is unique to NA, but I do think it is very prevalent among NA players vs JP, for example. In my experience, the US (for example) has a very individualistic culture that values individual achievements, communal achievements are valued far less because it's seen as weak to rely on the support of others. Rugged individualism does not play well with others...

[odintius]

Not even sure the servers could handle this the way the make it sound if someone sneezes it could crash the server as it currently stands lol. That I don't see this really doing anything in the end people are still going to play how they play /shrug.