Forcing NA Duty Finder to be better, we need a grading system.

[Lexia]

I think the option already exist, only downside is the high ping, JP language for most servers, and no free transfer

Why should the transfer be free?

[Brian_]

This is the big thing, and I feel that the side that is advocating against any sort of policing is not understanding the fact that we are talking about those exceptions (which unfortunately from my past experience, is becoming increasingly more common on DF) and that it shouldn't be given a pass, not in the realm of "you aren't playing to my standard, you get vote kicked".

Well like I said earlier, this specific type of policing is counter productive. You don't improve a bad player by burying them in a ditch with all the other bad players. You don't grow the skill level of your player-base by putting a bunch of speed bumps and road blocks on their path of progression.

The primary issue is you need to get people to care. And, this topic does not address that fundamental issue. Bad players who are content with being bad won't care to become better in this system. Good players won't care to extend themselves beyond themselves.

[Yasuhiro]

Maybe you should go play on the Japanese servers if you think they do it better. This is why SE locked out certain content from DF such as Extreme primals and later unlocked so anyone can try to do it.

I do and I don't regret my move from Gilgamesh to Tonberry (Latency issues mostly since Australian) Not even trying to be "glorious japan!" about it but the player difference even from English speakers themselves playing on Tonberry is night and day.

3.1 was the worst though, loads of NA players moving to Tonberry for their savage clears because they hear about how easy it is to clear on JP servers not even realizing it's their attitude that decided whether they get a clear or not not just player skill. Happy most of them moved back after 3.2, Tonberry is a lot better these days, can't even imagine trying to clear Minstrels Ballad: Nidhogg on a NA server

[RiceisNice]

Well like I said earlier, this specific type of policing is counter productive. You don't improve a bad player by burying them in a ditch with all the other bad players. You don't grow the skill level of your player-base by putting a bunch of speed bumps and road blocks on their path of progression.

The primary issue is you need to get people to care. And, this topic does not address that fundamental issue. Bad players who are content with being bad won't care to become better in this system. Good players won't care to extend themselves beyond themselves.

I've already said that I'm not advocating on something like this; pushing away the problem won't solve it. However, the design of the content essentially allows for it, combine that with apathetic people who don't care or even encourage it (indirectly or not, such as telling people to stop giving advice or having expectations in DF). If you've kept up with my posts, as well as the quote I was replying to, it's astonishing to see how people are disagreeing with the very idea of wanting people to understand the basics of the game (that, or they lump it in the same category of having high expectations, or any at all).

>A performs poorly
>B gives A suggestions
>A Wants to play how he wants to play
>C Doesn't want A to be a burden on the party intentionally
>D Feels that no one should be held accountable for their performance
>Z Jumps in and says that people shouldn't expect people to be playing at top tier in a DF run
>1 wants people like A to at the very least put in basic understanding
>Z sees 1's request as the aforementioned top tier playing expectation

This is more or less what I keep seeing in these sort of discussions; So much of the argument comes from both sides taking their/the opposite perspective to the extreme and missing the context entirely. What was previously an exception in my typical DF run is starting to become more and more frequent.

[ADVSS]

That literally describes the vast DF playerbase you run into, well done! Though we always kick X when they go on trolling and cursing everyone else like theyre possessed by some finger-tourettes demon

[Gallus]

I'd like something like this, dungeons are so easy to steamroll I think this game needs some sort of incentive to keep doing them other than for capping tomes... I think it would be good that the game gave you a reason to perform well on your job (atm the difference between mastering a job and using 2 spells in 90% of the content of this game makes like...no difference).
Not sure how it could be done though without people perceiving it as "community split" and "toxicity" though.

[Brian_]

I've already said that I'm not advocating on something like this; pushing away the problem won't solve it. However, the design of the content essentially allows for it, combine that with apathetic people who don't care or even encourage it (indirectly or not, such as telling people to stop giving advice or having expectations in DF). If you've kept up with my posts, as well as the quote I was replying to, it's astonishing to see how people are disagreeing with the very idea of wanting people to understand the basics of the game (that, or they lump it in the same category of having high expectations, or any at all).

The design of content in this game is fine. It's the systems around it that fail it.

Our right to play this game how we want and to protect that right is also perfectly fine. That is really the most basic right we all have.

The point everyone misses is that if you want to fix this issue you address the origin of the problem. You don't get caught up in what this topic has become. The origin of this problem has nothing to do with the content. It has nothing to do with player interactions. You go back to before any notion of how we want to play this game is established within our minds and you influence that. It's like Inception -- you have to go deep into their mind, plant an idea at the most basic level, and let it blossom into a result.

And, like I said, that root element is care. You need to change a bad player who doesn't care about improving into a bad player that feels the need to improve. You need to change a good player who doesn't care about helping others into a good player that feels the obligation to help others. Any discussion that actually wants to get anywhere has to provide real solutions aimed at this change.

A grading system can accomplish this. But, this iteration won't. Like I said, this system provides no real reason for a bad player who is content with being bad and playing with other bad players to strive to improve. It also provides no real reason for a good player capable of helping others to actually do so. So long as they do their part and nothing more, they won't have to deal with bad players.

It doesn't build a bridge between the two extremes of players. Rather than force a community to sink or swim together, it deepens the fracture between the extremes by breeding more toxicity at the lower end and fostering even more elitism at the upper end. And, what we'll see is playing out in this topic -- the reasonable moderates just get caught in the whirlpool of conflict between "bads" and "elitists."

[ADVSS]

well hold on, if an average time completed vs overall time for calculated gear was to come out, with a non lethal(i suck at pvp but i love seeing the stats at the end) or even a collected average time for this duty based on the last x instances of it, were to be added at completion and a top dps by total numbers not average dps etc, maybe that would give people more incentive to improve without saying any words in chat at all.

Youre right about attitude though, and thats why i dont comment in party chat much anymore, its pointless to give suggestions unless asked, or if convo is provoked by another for a means to give them advice but if no one asks, or makes initiative for such advise i leave it be and type "/fc man this run is gonna take forever."

[Klamor]

People keep referring to playing this game by any sort of standards as a "right," presumably because they pay a subscription just like everyone else. You playing this game is not a "right" by any stretch of the imagination; it's a privilege. A privilege granted upon yourself because you have the disposable income available to afford it, and SE is kind enough to offer the service to you. With that said, your privilege extends to utilizing other individuals to join your group (and you to join theirs) in order to accomplish a goal that is insurmountable by any of the parts of said group on their own. If you choose to be a faulty cog in the machine that is your group, don't be upset by the probability that you'll soon be replaced by a smoother-turning, less noisy cog.

Plenty of people bring up the whole side of the story that people should "remember that there are people on the other side of the computer" that they're playing with. That goes both ways. Don't be a burden, and expect that others won't be a burden unto you. We're all here to enjoy the game as it's meant to be enjoyed; don't be the one that ruins that enjoyment whether due to your apathy or otherwise. Just, do your part as completely as you're able.

[Neophyte]

I can't play soccer very good, but still I want to take part in every match available.
But I don't want to train, nor do I want any advice or any strategic/tactic jabbering.
I don't even want to know which position i should play... If I want to go keeper, I just do it and if I decide to do that with my hands tied behind my back you should better live with it.
Everyone who tells me how I should hit the ball to make him go where I want or whoever tells me in what direction I have to play is an elitist!


People in this thread.