What can I do to stop this?

[Clansman2016]

Out of curiosity, which dungeons do tanks hate most? Just wondering what I have to look forward to

[HoodRat]

Out of curiosity, which dungeons do tanks hate most? Just wondering what I have to look forward to

The one that everyone hates most is aetherochemical research facility because it's lengthy compared to other level 60 dungeons, it drops no loot at all, and it gives a small amount of tomes for completion. The only reason to run it is for the story quest, but it was put into the level 60 roulette because before hardly anyone ran it so people who needed it for the story had to wait a while. But now that it's in the roulette, it's possible to get put into a group of people who have all cleared it.

[Brian_]

This is your strawman argument again. No one in this thread has said or made this connection at all. It's not like some random group picked you up off the street and forced you to tank the dungeon for them. YOU VOLUNTEERED! Hence the obligation. Hence why you are a selfish jerk to go back on your word.

It's only a strawman because you didn't read this topic. As someone else already admitted when claiming strawman, they were blind to what they themselves have posted.

Multiple times in this thread I have asked if people actually consider both sides of the argument. Multiple times they have either deflected, ignored the question, flipped it back to the tank (thus missing the point of the question), or just distorted it into something completely different (winsock). You don't get to call something a strawman because you are blind. If you can't see how blindly one-sided winsock's posts are, you should stop saying that I'm attacking a strawman and start admitting you are a blind-man.

I didn't sign a binding agreement that I can't leave my group. That's your own delusional definition of what DF is. Look at the fricken facts and reality.

[Brian_]

When you queue for the roulette, you accept that the dungeon you get may not be the dungeon you want. I mean.... that is what a roulette is....
Why does your party need to suffer from your roulette loss as well? You are demanding and enforcing they take a hit for your RNG fail.

This is your core problem. You are saying DF is something it is not. When you queue for a roulette, YOU STILL HAVE THE OPTION TO LEAVE WITH A 30 MINUTE PENALTY. THAT IS WHAT A ROULETTE IS.

WHEN YOU DON'T QUEUE AS A TANK, YOU RUN THE RISK THAT YOU GET A "BAD" TANK. THE "BAD" TANK DIDN'T FORCE YOU TO TAKE THAT RISK. YOU MADE THAT DECISION. THAT IS WHAT A ROULETTE IS.

JUST LIKE HOW THE TANK HAS TO LIVE WITH NOT GETTING A PREFERRED DUNGEON BY EATING A 30 MINUTE PENALTY IF THEY LEAVE, YOU HAVE TO LIVE WITH NOT GETTING A "GOOD" TANK BY REQUEUING. THAT IS WHAT A ROULETTE IS.

GET THAT INTO YOUR HEAD.

You are basing your definition of DF on your personal opinion.

I am telling you what DF is based on reality.

^ The cost was the cost you placed on him. You are liable for that.

I am not liable for his decision to not queue as a tank himself. He took that risk.

You are arguing that you are justified in spending a "penalty" like a "currency." Do you truly not see anything wrong with that?

One side is actually approaching the system as it factually exists.

The other side, your side, is layering on their own system of morals onto the system and dictating to others how the system should be interpreted.

You knowingly and deliberately took action to negatively impact the rest of you party
How did the rest of the party do that to you?

I am also a part of that party. So, when they force me to do something I don't want to do, they are negatively impacting part of the party.

^ where? Also... remember you are 'leaving a dungeon' and preventing the party from playing their duty..... You didnt get your way, so you took your toys and went home. childish.

Go right ahead. No one is telling you cant, but your actions are both childish and selfish. Don't cry when you are criticized for that, you earned it. Outlooks like yours are the reason we have things like DF penalties and Need/Greed enforcement.

You lack empathy and are so focused on fulfilling your needs that you step on the people around you. Then when confronted about your behavior, you do things like blame the roulette system...

And you don't lack empathy for not understanding the tank's situation? That's why you're a hypocrite -- despite both sides being guilty of selfishness, you only see one side. The TC, for the purpose of farming his anima weapon, is ALSO STEPPING ON THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM. YOU JUST REFUSE TO SEE THAT.

And where? No one is telling me I can't? YOU HAVE LITERALLY TOLD ME THAT I CAN'T QUEUE.

If you dont want to do dungeons in the roulette, dont use the roulette.

In short, when you queue roulette, you consent to being available for any possible duty within that roulette.

THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS.

And I am not crying about being called selfish by some SJW. I have admitted the behavior is selfish yet you think I haven't. I am pointing out that the same selfishness also exists on the other side. I am pointing out the lunacy in someone claiming that because DF can't be what they want, that other people don't get to partake in the actual system.

And one final shot across the bow. SE has announced the rewards from ARF are tripling. I wonder why. Could it possibly be that they also acknowledge how stupid it is that the run is twice as long with far worse rewards than the alternatives? HMMMMMM.......................

[Februs]

Out of curiosity, which dungeons do tanks hate most? Just wondering what I have to look forward to

Objectively or personally?

As a general rule, tanks insta-queue for most dungeons; so, we typically hate any dungeon in which the reward does not match the time it takes to complete it. That includes almost all of the MSQ roulette, as well as the Aetherochemical Research Facility. The ARF gets more hate than most, however, because SE decided to troll all of us and slot it into the lvl 60 roulette. Some of the lvl 50 grind can be kind of long too; so, Stone Vigil, Dzemael Darkhold, and Arum Vale were hated pretty strongly for a good long while as well.

Beyond that, it's a personal preference thing. If you hate speed pulls or tanking large groups of mobs, then you could have a distaste for any dungeon between patch 2.5 - 3.0. If you don't like slower paced dungeons and restricted pull sizes, then you might have a distaste for anything post 3.0, because SE decided to put an awful lot of doors into those dungeons. If you did a Zeta Relic Weapon before any of the nerfs, you almost certainly hate, with a deep seething passion, 1 or 2 (if not all) of the dungeons in that list, because running something 50 or 100+ times inspires some pretty impressive rage.

[winsock]

Lawl, all caps?

This is your core problem. You are saying DF is something it is not. When you queue for a roulette, YOU STILL HAVE THE OPTION TO LEAVE WITH A 30 MINUTE PENALTY. THAT IS WHAT A ROULETTE IS.

In my quote I was using "roulette" literally, but I apologize for not making that clear. In other words, a game of chance where you dont know what you are going to get.

As it pertains to the actual in game roulette, who are you to define what it is?
When you look at how SE built the system, they imposed a "penalty" for leaving. Note that a "penalty" is a "punishment" that results from "breaking a rule". In other words by leaving your party, you "break a rule" SE made. Breaking rules, especially ones that negatively impact other people, is not generally considered to be socially acceptable. All I am saying is should you leave with a penalty, that action is considered selfish.

WHEN YOU DON'T QUEUE AS A TANK, YOU RUN THE RISK THAT YOU GET A "BAD" TANK. THE "BAD" TANK DIDN'T FORCE YOU TO TAKE THAT RISK. YOU MADE THAT DECISION. GET THAT INTO YOUR HEAD.[/B]

That does not absolve you from personal liability. If I schedule a meeting in real life that requires Person X to be there and Person X agrees to be there, I still run the risk of Person X not following through. However, Person X is still liable for not showing. He cant turn around and be like: "Well, whenever you schedule a meeting, you risk people not showing, so it's your fault I didn't show."

Do you believe people who take negative actions against other people should be held accountable for anything? Or in your opinion, are the negatively impacted people always the liable party for putting themselves in situation were they could be negatively impacted?

I am not liable for his decision to not queue as a tank himself. He took that risk.

While true, you are still liable for the action of abandoning your group.

Look at this problem both logically and realistically:
* SE imposed a "penalty" for leaving.
* A penalty is a punishment that results from break a rule
* When you leave a group, you receive a penalty because you are breaking a rule.
* It is generally considered socially unacceptable for someone to break rules that negatively impact other people.

You are accountable for your own actions. I would love to hear your next excuse as to why the system or your party members are actually the responsible parties.....

I am also a part of that party. So, when they force me to do something I don't want to do, they are negatively impacting part of the party.

They literally cannot do that. Tell me how anyone in your party can realistically force you to stay. They probably dont even know you are going to leave until you've already done it.

And you don't lack empathy for not understanding the tank's situation? That's why you're a hypocrite

The logic is bad because it supports both of our arguments.
For example, endless loop:
You to me: You are not empathizing with me; therefore, you have no right to criticize me.
Me to you: You are not empathizing with me; therefore, you have no right to criticize me.

I have admitted the behavior is selfish yet you think I haven't. I am pointing out that the same selfishness also exists on the other side.

You admit to the action, but take you no responsibility for it. You believe you are justified 'because' you believe that selfishness exists on the other side. However, see the above point for why your definition of selfishness is irrational.

And one final shot across the bow. SE has announced the rewards from ARF are tripling. I wonder why. Could it possibly be that they also acknowledge how stupid it is that the run is twice as long with far worse rewards than the alternatives? HMMMMMM.......................

Yep! However, this is not justification for leaving. You spin a roulette wheel and it lands on a prize of lesser value than the others. Regardless, you are the one who spun the wheel. You are the one chose to fill the 'Tank role' for the party. And you are the person who broke both your commitment and SE's established rule.

THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS.

Yep!

[HoodRat]

I once had two friends who were late to raid because they didn't want to leave early from an A3 group in df. They didn't want to leave because of the 30 minute penalty, but the group there was 6/8 premade and were purposely wiping to keep them there because one of them told the group to hurry because they had to get to raid. So according to Winsock, my friends were the guilty party because they would have gotten a 30 minute penalty for leaving. That is what I am understanding here. And since my friends couldn't kick anyone because it was 2 against 6, I suppose that means SE is perfectly fine with that behavior.

And I suppose I deserved every 30 minute penalty I got for leaving every group where it was blatantly obvious I was carrying everyone because my dps, as tank, would be higher than the healer's and both dps classes' combined.

[KeiranOlive]

I once had two friends who were late to raid because they didn't want to leave early from an A3 group in df. They didn't want to leave because of the 30 minute penalty, but the group there was 6/8 premade and were purposely wiping to keep them there because one of them told the group to hurry because they had to get to raid. So according to Winsock, my friends were the guilty party because they would have gotten a 30 minute penalty for leaving. That is what I am understanding here. And since my friends couldn't kick anyone because it was 2 against 6, I suppose that means SE is perfectly fine with that behavior.

Actually, I believe that would be considered harassment and can be reported.

[Lyth]

As a general rule of thumb, you shouldn't queue for something if you couldn't potentially either clear or get out of it prior to the start of raid time. There are about five hundred different non-instanced things that you can do while you wait for raid to start. It's always better to be kept waiting than to keep seven other people waiting.

[HoodRat]

As a general rule of thumb, you shouldn't queue for something if you couldn't potentially either clear or get out of it prior to the start of raid time. There are about five hundred different non-instanced things that you can do while you wait for raid to start. It's always better to be kept waiting than to keep seven other people waiting.

I can't remember exactly but I wanna say they went in about half an hour or twenty five minutes before raid (and this is after SE made it extremely easy to get 210). From the sounds of their horrified screams, the premade they got was absolutely horrible and one of my friends pointed out that one of the dps had the lowest dps out of all 8 players. And that was one they discovered that all those players were together and when what should have been a simple a3 df run became a hostage situation.