What can I do to stop this?

[winsock]

This has gotten quite pathetic. I'll recap for you since you've resorted to such stupidity.

This is your logic you are calling stupid you realize...

You dont remember saying this?:

Everyone is in it for their own goals. My stance this entire time is that people will be selfish. The most you can do is hope that your goals align.
...
at the end of the day, if you want to express that selfishness, you are fully within your rights to do so. All I am saying is that the other party members are equally entitled to express their selfishness and kick you or drop the duty.

Or better yet:

I assume most people are queuing into dungeons for selfish reasons. It's probably pretty rare that someone is doing a dungeon run for no personal benefit.
....
for people to turn around and call other people self-centered despite having the same skew in motives is hypocritical. You're saying that you're entitled to your selfishness but they should sacrifice for the group.

You're calling selfishness for calling out selfishness... which the same logic employed in the "Paradox of Tolerance"

The problem with this is that I can also do the same thing... you're criticizing me for calling you out for behavior I dont agree with, but in doing so, you call me out for behavior you dont agree with. You have no leg to stand on. Notice you had no logical argument addressing this, just a childish "this is stupid" defense. You arent making a logical argument be cause you cant:
* If you defend this line of logic, then I have every right to criticize you.
* If you attack this logic, then your justification for leaving party would also be incorrect, and you are in the wrong for abandoning the group... which subjects you to criticism.

Please provide a logical argument if you dispute this, rather than your childish "This is stupid" defense. If you believe it to be stupid, prove why the logic is flawed. I should also reiterate that this is YOUR original logic... and yes, I agree it is stupid.

[Brian_]

The basis of your statement is clearly wrong and that much is very clear from what I've said. That's why I call it stupidity. Because you clearly can't read.

I'm not calling people selfish for calling others selfish. I'm saying that in the TC's case, he was using DF for his own goals just like the tank that left. What you and many others are doing is criticizing one form of selfishness and go as far as telling someone to play the game according to your own rules while completely turning a blind eye to another form of selfishness.

I had a perfectly logical argument. It was that you are now completely misconstruing the original argument in your delusional attempt to claim I did something I never did. Just look at your post. You quoted me and then claimed I said something I didn't.

I'm not calling you selfish for calling out selfishness. I'm calling you a hypocrite for not acknowledging both sides of the coin.

Do you not see the selfishness in demanding that a tank stay in your group and finish a roulette no matter what or the hypocrisy in telling that tank how they should play the game while not making the same suggestion to a person in the TC's position?

Do you not see the false equivalency? If I leave a dungeon because of whatever reason, I am not telling you how to play the game. I am only going about my own business within the system. You are the only person here trying to tell other people how they should or shouldn't play the game. That's what I'm saying. When you flip the argument and make the claim that I shouldn't tell you what to do, I completely agree. I'm more than willing to just let everyone enjoy the game their own way. The problem is you aren't. Your default stance inherently demands others play by your rules. This is textbook SJW.

One last time, as clearly as I can possibly state it.

When I leave a dungeon for personal reasons, I am being selfish. I AM NOT telling other people they have no right to be selfish while being selfish myself.

When you tell someone not to queue for a roulette if they can't accept some made up rules, you are telling others how to play the game. YOU ARE telling other people that they shouldn't tell you how to act WHILE STILL telling other people how to act.

That's why you're a raging hypocrite and I am not.

[winsock]

Do you not see the selfishness in demanding that a tank stay in your group and finish a roulette no matter what...

^ the tank leaving is a selfish action.
You are saying it is selfish critize that selfish action.

My prior argument stands. You're calling selfishness for calling out selfishness.
* If you defend this line of logic, then I have every right to criticize you.
* If you attack this logic, then there is no hypocrisy, the tank is in the wrong and rightfully subject to critism

[Brian_]

No, your problem is you are removing my argument from the original context in an attempt to skew things in order to fit your narrative and self-righteous delusions. I specifically said what I did in response to the TC and similar situations. I pointed out that both sides, both the TC and the tank, were using DF for their own personal gain. As such, you can't really claim one side is right while the other is wrong. You decided to jump into the conversation to call one side wrong and selfish and then stated that if the tank can't accept your definition of DF, that they should not queue.

That is the origin of this argument and the basis for this discussion. If you can't understand that and want to continue in your delusions, maybe you should start your own thread because it's clearly unrelated to this thread.

As for another blatant case of false equivalency, no, the tank didn't force them to do anything. They both signed up for DF under the same conditions. Contrary to your delusions about what DF should be, DF FACTUALLY IS a match-making system that pairs either a preformed group or random people into a random dungeon with the option to leave with a 30 minute penalty. In other words, when the TC queued for DF, he accepted the possibility that his tank might leave and that he would have to requeue. He accepted the possibility that his group might not clear. The tank didn't force him to accept any of that. The tank also didn't force him not to queue as a tank himself or queue with a tank friend. He made the decision he did, took that risk, and paid the cost. The tank that left the roulette did the exact same thing. He made the decision to roll on the dungeon, took the risk of not getting something he wanted, and paid the cost -- a 30 minute lock-out. They did the same thing. You are the one trying to assume they did something different when both were just trying to play the game they wanted to. Both didn't get what they wanted and both paid a cost. You're the one here trying to tell people how they should play the game.

It's hilarious that somehow you are trying to argue I'm the intolerant one when you are the one that has stated that if we don't play by your rules, we shouldn't play at all. I'm saying we all play by our own rules and there is nothing you can do about it.

[Jpec07]

So, Brian_, I have a few questions for you, if you don't mind me asking:

I asked in a post that (I'm guessing) you didn't read thoroughly (since you summarized it as "Ranting" - I admit I laughed because of how false that was), and I never got an answer. Is your position that, because the system does not impose a stricter penalty than thirty minutes for leaving an instance prior to its conclusion, the choice of whether to eat that penalty is the only one a tank (or any player) needs to make when considering whether or not to continue in an undesirable piece of content (be it for the instance itself, the ineptitude of the group, etc.)?

Such a question denies the potential additional social penalty faced by players who behave that way - would you also argue that there ought not to be a social penalty, and that people should just accept if someone who queued for a roulette leaves because the instance or group they wound up with was undesirable?

And one more, getting a bit philosophical, but are you also of the opinion that people don't need to consider the effects their thoughts, words, and actions can have on others when determining their own behavior? By extension, I'm asking if you think a tank shouldn't consider the group they'd be abandoning in their decision to drop.

EDIT: One more I thought of: are you opposed to some kind of alteration to the penalty, in order to encourage completion more thoroughly?

[zmandude24]

My problem lies in tanks. There are many problems I've had with tank players during my farm, but the one that bothers me the most is a tank will leave as soon as we enter a dungeon, leaving us stranded in this dungeon for 30-40+ minutes waiting for someone to fill that job.

I've reached a point, where its driving me crazy. Its very hard to do dungeons without a tank. Its a struggle and is very reliant on my dps party members to be better than the average player. I've had to heal 10 dungeons completely tank-less just for some poetics and eso in the last 2 days alone. and I'm just at a loss on what to do. Do I really have to level up a tank job, learn to play it and gear up just to get the anima weapon for the class I want to play? Please help me tank community, why is my experience with tank players in this game so awful?

And stuff like that is why 90% of the time I main a class that can tank when I play MMOs.

[Brian_]

Said...

The choice everyone makes is the same. You make that choice when you queue for DF. It's the acceptance that you get what you get and if you don't like it, you can leave. That isn't restricted only to the scenario where you don't get a dungeon you want to do. This is the age old scenario where you see a horrible DPS player, try to "educate" them, and you get the often parodied remark that you don't pay their sub so you don't get to tell them what to do. The obvious counter to that argument is that they also don't get to stop you from trying to vote-kick them out of the group or leaving the group yourself.

Such is my point. Everyone is entitled to their own piece of the pie in relation to the overall system. You aren't entitled to someone else's pie. If you don't queue as a tank, you don't get to tell the tank what to do. You can't be a horribly toxic player and then stop the team from kicking you. You make a decision and you live with the consequences.

If you want to apply an added social penalty and label them as selfish, go ahead. I'm just saying that it's hypocritical not to see that there is also selfishness on the other side in demanding someone yield to your will. I'm also saying that there is a deeper conflict in determining what you label as selfish based only on your own biases. For example, if a tank left a group because they were getting relentlessly harassed, would you still consider it selfish? If someone leaves a group because the DPS is just afk-auto-attacking, are they selfish for not carrying that group? If you queue as a PLD because you want to play PLD or as any DPS class other than SMN, are you being selfish when you waste the party's time? When you queue as a healer and get a tank that is wearing full STR gear, refuses to turn on their tank stance or use dCDs, and pulls everything he possibly can in one go, are you selfish when you leave? All these are also examples of someone just wanting to enjoy the game within their rights.

In my very first post, I already outlined the criteria I use. I said that I try not to leave if there is a green-leaf or bonus (even if I don't care for the bonus). So, by extension, I obviously do consider their circumstances. However, by my conclusion, if you aren't there because you're new or need to clear it, then you're probably there for the exact same reason I am -- to farm something. At that point, you're in the TC's boat and I've made my argument for that situation rather clear.

[Red_Wolf]

I'm just saying that it's hypocritical not to see that there is also selfishness on the other side in demanding someone yield to your will.

This is your strawman argument again. No one in this thread has said or made this connection at all. It's not like some random group picked you up off the street and forced you to tank the dungeon for them. YOU VOLUNTEERED! Hence the obligation. Hence why you are a selfish jerk to go back on your word.

[winsock]

In other words, when the TC queued for DF, he accepted the possibility that his tank might leave and that he would have to requeue. He accepted the possibility that his group might not clear. The tank didn't force him to accept any of that.

When you queue for the roulette, you accept that the dungeon you get may not be the dungeon you want. I mean.... that is what a roulette is....
Why does your party need to suffer from your roulette loss as well? You are demanding and enforcing they take a hit for your RNG fail.

He made the decision he did, took that risk, and paid the cost.

^ The cost was the cost you placed on him. You are liable for that.

The tank that left the roulette did the exact same thing. He made the decision to roll on the dungeon, took the risk of not getting something he wanted, and paid the cost -- a 30 minute lock-out.

You are arguing that you are justified in spending a "penalty" like a "currency." Do you truly not see anything wrong with that?

They did the same thing. You are the one trying to assume they did something different when both were just trying to play the game they wanted to. Both didn't get what they wanted and both paid a cost.

You knowingly and deliberately took action to negatively impact the rest of you party
How did the rest of the party do that to you?

you are the one that has stated that if we don't play by your rules, we shouldn't play at all.

^ where? Also... remember you are 'leaving a dungeon' and preventing the party from playing their duty..... You didnt get your way, so you took your toys and went home. childish.

I'm saying we all play by our own rules and there is nothing you can do about it.

Go right ahead. No one is telling you cant, but your actions are both childish and selfish. Don't cry when you are criticized for that, you earned it. Outlooks like yours are the reason we have things like DF penalties and Need/Greed enforcement.

You lack empathy and are so focused on fulfilling your needs that you step on the people around you. Then when confronted about your behavior, you do things like blame the roulette system...

[bounddreamer]

Same as Ekimmak, if I get a duty I don't like in roulette, I grumble, but I won't bail. I'll bitch out loud about it, maybe in FC chat or TS if the run goes long or wrong (RIP 45 min Lost City of Amdapor HM run) but when I join, I'm in there to do what I signed up for. That goes for mentor roulette too, even when it's something I'd really rather not do.

My job is already one of the easiest in the game. I may as well do what I can to make the load lighter for the rest of my party.

Try to find tanks to queue with you, either through linkshells, FC, or party finder. I never have to go into a roulette alone if I don't want to, mentor roulette being the only exception.