What can I do to stop this?

[winsock]

In other words, when the TC queued for DF, he accepted the possibility that his tank might leave and that he would have to requeue. He accepted the possibility that his group might not clear. The tank didn't force him to accept any of that.

When you queue for the roulette, you accept that the dungeon you get may not be the dungeon you want. I mean.... that is what a roulette is....
Why does your party need to suffer from your roulette loss as well? You are demanding and enforcing they take a hit for your RNG fail.

He made the decision he did, took that risk, and paid the cost.

^ The cost was the cost you placed on him. You are liable for that.

The tank that left the roulette did the exact same thing. He made the decision to roll on the dungeon, took the risk of not getting something he wanted, and paid the cost -- a 30 minute lock-out.

You are arguing that you are justified in spending a "penalty" like a "currency." Do you truly not see anything wrong with that?

They did the same thing. You are the one trying to assume they did something different when both were just trying to play the game they wanted to. Both didn't get what they wanted and both paid a cost.

You knowingly and deliberately took action to negatively impact the rest of you party
How did the rest of the party do that to you?

you are the one that has stated that if we don't play by your rules, we shouldn't play at all.

^ where? Also... remember you are 'leaving a dungeon' and preventing the party from playing their duty..... You didnt get your way, so you took your toys and went home. childish.

I'm saying we all play by our own rules and there is nothing you can do about it.

Go right ahead. No one is telling you cant, but your actions are both childish and selfish. Don't cry when you are criticized for that, you earned it. Outlooks like yours are the reason we have things like DF penalties and Need/Greed enforcement.

You lack empathy and are so focused on fulfilling your needs that you step on the people around you. Then when confronted about your behavior, you do things like blame the roulette system...

[Brian_]

When you queue for the roulette, you accept that the dungeon you get may not be the dungeon you want. I mean.... that is what a roulette is....
Why does your party need to suffer from your roulette loss as well? You are demanding and enforcing they take a hit for your RNG fail.

This is your core problem. You are saying DF is something it is not. When you queue for a roulette, YOU STILL HAVE THE OPTION TO LEAVE WITH A 30 MINUTE PENALTY. THAT IS WHAT A ROULETTE IS.

WHEN YOU DON'T QUEUE AS A TANK, YOU RUN THE RISK THAT YOU GET A "BAD" TANK. THE "BAD" TANK DIDN'T FORCE YOU TO TAKE THAT RISK. YOU MADE THAT DECISION. THAT IS WHAT A ROULETTE IS.

JUST LIKE HOW THE TANK HAS TO LIVE WITH NOT GETTING A PREFERRED DUNGEON BY EATING A 30 MINUTE PENALTY IF THEY LEAVE, YOU HAVE TO LIVE WITH NOT GETTING A "GOOD" TANK BY REQUEUING. THAT IS WHAT A ROULETTE IS.

GET THAT INTO YOUR HEAD.

You are basing your definition of DF on your personal opinion.

I am telling you what DF is based on reality.

^ The cost was the cost you placed on him. You are liable for that.

I am not liable for his decision to not queue as a tank himself. He took that risk.

You are arguing that you are justified in spending a "penalty" like a "currency." Do you truly not see anything wrong with that?

One side is actually approaching the system as it factually exists.

The other side, your side, is layering on their own system of morals onto the system and dictating to others how the system should be interpreted.

You knowingly and deliberately took action to negatively impact the rest of you party
How did the rest of the party do that to you?

I am also a part of that party. So, when they force me to do something I don't want to do, they are negatively impacting part of the party.

^ where? Also... remember you are 'leaving a dungeon' and preventing the party from playing their duty..... You didnt get your way, so you took your toys and went home. childish.

Go right ahead. No one is telling you cant, but your actions are both childish and selfish. Don't cry when you are criticized for that, you earned it. Outlooks like yours are the reason we have things like DF penalties and Need/Greed enforcement.

You lack empathy and are so focused on fulfilling your needs that you step on the people around you. Then when confronted about your behavior, you do things like blame the roulette system...

And you don't lack empathy for not understanding the tank's situation? That's why you're a hypocrite -- despite both sides being guilty of selfishness, you only see one side. The TC, for the purpose of farming his anima weapon, is ALSO STEPPING ON THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM. YOU JUST REFUSE TO SEE THAT.

And where? No one is telling me I can't? YOU HAVE LITERALLY TOLD ME THAT I CAN'T QUEUE.

If you dont want to do dungeons in the roulette, dont use the roulette.

In short, when you queue roulette, you consent to being available for any possible duty within that roulette.

THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS.

And I am not crying about being called selfish by some SJW. I have admitted the behavior is selfish yet you think I haven't. I am pointing out that the same selfishness also exists on the other side. I am pointing out the lunacy in someone claiming that because DF can't be what they want, that other people don't get to partake in the actual system.

And one final shot across the bow. SE has announced the rewards from ARF are tripling. I wonder why. Could it possibly be that they also acknowledge how stupid it is that the run is twice as long with far worse rewards than the alternatives? HMMMMMM.......................

[winsock]

Lawl, all caps?

This is your core problem. You are saying DF is something it is not. When you queue for a roulette, YOU STILL HAVE THE OPTION TO LEAVE WITH A 30 MINUTE PENALTY. THAT IS WHAT A ROULETTE IS.

In my quote I was using "roulette" literally, but I apologize for not making that clear. In other words, a game of chance where you dont know what you are going to get.

As it pertains to the actual in game roulette, who are you to define what it is?
When you look at how SE built the system, they imposed a "penalty" for leaving. Note that a "penalty" is a "punishment" that results from "breaking a rule". In other words by leaving your party, you "break a rule" SE made. Breaking rules, especially ones that negatively impact other people, is not generally considered to be socially acceptable. All I am saying is should you leave with a penalty, that action is considered selfish.

WHEN YOU DON'T QUEUE AS A TANK, YOU RUN THE RISK THAT YOU GET A "BAD" TANK. THE "BAD" TANK DIDN'T FORCE YOU TO TAKE THAT RISK. YOU MADE THAT DECISION. GET THAT INTO YOUR HEAD.[/B]

That does not absolve you from personal liability. If I schedule a meeting in real life that requires Person X to be there and Person X agrees to be there, I still run the risk of Person X not following through. However, Person X is still liable for not showing. He cant turn around and be like: "Well, whenever you schedule a meeting, you risk people not showing, so it's your fault I didn't show."

Do you believe people who take negative actions against other people should be held accountable for anything? Or in your opinion, are the negatively impacted people always the liable party for putting themselves in situation were they could be negatively impacted?

I am not liable for his decision to not queue as a tank himself. He took that risk.

While true, you are still liable for the action of abandoning your group.

Look at this problem both logically and realistically:
* SE imposed a "penalty" for leaving.
* A penalty is a punishment that results from break a rule
* When you leave a group, you receive a penalty because you are breaking a rule.
* It is generally considered socially unacceptable for someone to break rules that negatively impact other people.

You are accountable for your own actions. I would love to hear your next excuse as to why the system or your party members are actually the responsible parties.....

I am also a part of that party. So, when they force me to do something I don't want to do, they are negatively impacting part of the party.

They literally cannot do that. Tell me how anyone in your party can realistically force you to stay. They probably dont even know you are going to leave until you've already done it.

And you don't lack empathy for not understanding the tank's situation? That's why you're a hypocrite

The logic is bad because it supports both of our arguments.
For example, endless loop:
You to me: You are not empathizing with me; therefore, you have no right to criticize me.
Me to you: You are not empathizing with me; therefore, you have no right to criticize me.

I have admitted the behavior is selfish yet you think I haven't. I am pointing out that the same selfishness also exists on the other side.

You admit to the action, but take you no responsibility for it. You believe you are justified 'because' you believe that selfishness exists on the other side. However, see the above point for why your definition of selfishness is irrational.

And one final shot across the bow. SE has announced the rewards from ARF are tripling. I wonder why. Could it possibly be that they also acknowledge how stupid it is that the run is twice as long with far worse rewards than the alternatives? HMMMMMM.......................

Yep! However, this is not justification for leaving. You spin a roulette wheel and it lands on a prize of lesser value than the others. Regardless, you are the one who spun the wheel. You are the one chose to fill the 'Tank role' for the party. And you are the person who broke both your commitment and SE's established rule.

THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS.

Yep!

[HoodRat]

I once had two friends who were late to raid because they didn't want to leave early from an A3 group in df. They didn't want to leave because of the 30 minute penalty, but the group there was 6/8 premade and were purposely wiping to keep them there because one of them told the group to hurry because they had to get to raid. So according to Winsock, my friends were the guilty party because they would have gotten a 30 minute penalty for leaving. That is what I am understanding here. And since my friends couldn't kick anyone because it was 2 against 6, I suppose that means SE is perfectly fine with that behavior.

And I suppose I deserved every 30 minute penalty I got for leaving every group where it was blatantly obvious I was carrying everyone because my dps, as tank, would be higher than the healer's and both dps classes' combined.

[Jpec07]

So, Brian_, I have a few questions for you, if you don't mind me asking:

I asked in a post that (I'm guessing) you didn't read thoroughly (since you summarized it as "Ranting" - I admit I laughed because of how false that was), and I never got an answer. Is your position that, because the system does not impose a stricter penalty than thirty minutes for leaving an instance prior to its conclusion, the choice of whether to eat that penalty is the only one a tank (or any player) needs to make when considering whether or not to continue in an undesirable piece of content (be it for the instance itself, the ineptitude of the group, etc.)?

Such a question denies the potential additional social penalty faced by players who behave that way - would you also argue that there ought not to be a social penalty, and that people should just accept if someone who queued for a roulette leaves because the instance or group they wound up with was undesirable?

And one more, getting a bit philosophical, but are you also of the opinion that people don't need to consider the effects their thoughts, words, and actions can have on others when determining their own behavior? By extension, I'm asking if you think a tank shouldn't consider the group they'd be abandoning in their decision to drop.

EDIT: One more I thought of: are you opposed to some kind of alteration to the penalty, in order to encourage completion more thoroughly?

[Brian_]

Said...

The choice everyone makes is the same. You make that choice when you queue for DF. It's the acceptance that you get what you get and if you don't like it, you can leave. That isn't restricted only to the scenario where you don't get a dungeon you want to do. This is the age old scenario where you see a horrible DPS player, try to "educate" them, and you get the often parodied remark that you don't pay their sub so you don't get to tell them what to do. The obvious counter to that argument is that they also don't get to stop you from trying to vote-kick them out of the group or leaving the group yourself.

Such is my point. Everyone is entitled to their own piece of the pie in relation to the overall system. You aren't entitled to someone else's pie. If you don't queue as a tank, you don't get to tell the tank what to do. You can't be a horribly toxic player and then stop the team from kicking you. You make a decision and you live with the consequences.

If you want to apply an added social penalty and label them as selfish, go ahead. I'm just saying that it's hypocritical not to see that there is also selfishness on the other side in demanding someone yield to your will. I'm also saying that there is a deeper conflict in determining what you label as selfish based only on your own biases. For example, if a tank left a group because they were getting relentlessly harassed, would you still consider it selfish? If someone leaves a group because the DPS is just afk-auto-attacking, are they selfish for not carrying that group? If you queue as a PLD because you want to play PLD or as any DPS class other than SMN, are you being selfish when you waste the party's time? When you queue as a healer and get a tank that is wearing full STR gear, refuses to turn on their tank stance or use dCDs, and pulls everything he possibly can in one go, are you selfish when you leave? All these are also examples of someone just wanting to enjoy the game within their rights.

In my very first post, I already outlined the criteria I use. I said that I try not to leave if there is a green-leaf or bonus (even if I don't care for the bonus). So, by extension, I obviously do consider their circumstances. However, by my conclusion, if you aren't there because you're new or need to clear it, then you're probably there for the exact same reason I am -- to farm something. At that point, you're in the TC's boat and I've made my argument for that situation rather clear.

[Red_Wolf]

I'm just saying that it's hypocritical not to see that there is also selfishness on the other side in demanding someone yield to your will.

This is your strawman argument again. No one in this thread has said or made this connection at all. It's not like some random group picked you up off the street and forced you to tank the dungeon for them. YOU VOLUNTEERED! Hence the obligation. Hence why you are a selfish jerk to go back on your word.

[zmandude24]

My problem lies in tanks. There are many problems I've had with tank players during my farm, but the one that bothers me the most is a tank will leave as soon as we enter a dungeon, leaving us stranded in this dungeon for 30-40+ minutes waiting for someone to fill that job.

I've reached a point, where its driving me crazy. Its very hard to do dungeons without a tank. Its a struggle and is very reliant on my dps party members to be better than the average player. I've had to heal 10 dungeons completely tank-less just for some poetics and eso in the last 2 days alone. and I'm just at a loss on what to do. Do I really have to level up a tank job, learn to play it and gear up just to get the anima weapon for the class I want to play? Please help me tank community, why is my experience with tank players in this game so awful?

And stuff like that is why 90% of the time I main a class that can tank when I play MMOs.

[bounddreamer]

Same as Ekimmak, if I get a duty I don't like in roulette, I grumble, but I won't bail. I'll bitch out loud about it, maybe in FC chat or TS if the run goes long or wrong (RIP 45 min Lost City of Amdapor HM run) but when I join, I'm in there to do what I signed up for. That goes for mentor roulette too, even when it's something I'd really rather not do.

My job is already one of the easiest in the game. I may as well do what I can to make the load lighter for the rest of my party.

Try to find tanks to queue with you, either through linkshells, FC, or party finder. I never have to go into a roulette alone if I don't want to, mentor roulette being the only exception.

[Clansman2016]

Out of curiosity, which dungeons do tanks hate most? Just wondering what I have to look forward to