What can I do to stop this?

[winsock]

In other words, when the TC queued for DF, he accepted the possibility that his tank might leave and that he would have to requeue. He accepted the possibility that his group might not clear. The tank didn't force him to accept any of that.

When you queue for the roulette, you accept that the dungeon you get may not be the dungeon you want. I mean.... that is what a roulette is....
Why does your party need to suffer from your roulette loss as well? You are demanding and enforcing they take a hit for your RNG fail.

He made the decision he did, took that risk, and paid the cost.

^ The cost was the cost you placed on him. You are liable for that.

The tank that left the roulette did the exact same thing. He made the decision to roll on the dungeon, took the risk of not getting something he wanted, and paid the cost -- a 30 minute lock-out.

You are arguing that you are justified in spending a "penalty" like a "currency." Do you truly not see anything wrong with that?

They did the same thing. You are the one trying to assume they did something different when both were just trying to play the game they wanted to. Both didn't get what they wanted and both paid a cost.

You knowingly and deliberately took action to negatively impact the rest of you party
How did the rest of the party do that to you?

you are the one that has stated that if we don't play by your rules, we shouldn't play at all.

^ where? Also... remember you are 'leaving a dungeon' and preventing the party from playing their duty..... You didnt get your way, so you took your toys and went home. childish.

I'm saying we all play by our own rules and there is nothing you can do about it.

Go right ahead. No one is telling you cant, but your actions are both childish and selfish. Don't cry when you are criticized for that, you earned it. Outlooks like yours are the reason we have things like DF penalties and Need/Greed enforcement.

You lack empathy and are so focused on fulfilling your needs that you step on the people around you. Then when confronted about your behavior, you do things like blame the roulette system...

[Brian_]

When you queue for the roulette, you accept that the dungeon you get may not be the dungeon you want. I mean.... that is what a roulette is....
Why does your party need to suffer from your roulette loss as well? You are demanding and enforcing they take a hit for your RNG fail.

This is your core problem. You are saying DF is something it is not. When you queue for a roulette, YOU STILL HAVE THE OPTION TO LEAVE WITH A 30 MINUTE PENALTY. THAT IS WHAT A ROULETTE IS.

WHEN YOU DON'T QUEUE AS A TANK, YOU RUN THE RISK THAT YOU GET A "BAD" TANK. THE "BAD" TANK DIDN'T FORCE YOU TO TAKE THAT RISK. YOU MADE THAT DECISION. THAT IS WHAT A ROULETTE IS.

JUST LIKE HOW THE TANK HAS TO LIVE WITH NOT GETTING A PREFERRED DUNGEON BY EATING A 30 MINUTE PENALTY IF THEY LEAVE, YOU HAVE TO LIVE WITH NOT GETTING A "GOOD" TANK BY REQUEUING. THAT IS WHAT A ROULETTE IS.

GET THAT INTO YOUR HEAD.

You are basing your definition of DF on your personal opinion.

I am telling you what DF is based on reality.

^ The cost was the cost you placed on him. You are liable for that.

I am not liable for his decision to not queue as a tank himself. He took that risk.

You are arguing that you are justified in spending a "penalty" like a "currency." Do you truly not see anything wrong with that?

One side is actually approaching the system as it factually exists.

The other side, your side, is layering on their own system of morals onto the system and dictating to others how the system should be interpreted.

You knowingly and deliberately took action to negatively impact the rest of you party
How did the rest of the party do that to you?

I am also a part of that party. So, when they force me to do something I don't want to do, they are negatively impacting part of the party.

^ where? Also... remember you are 'leaving a dungeon' and preventing the party from playing their duty..... You didnt get your way, so you took your toys and went home. childish.

Go right ahead. No one is telling you cant, but your actions are both childish and selfish. Don't cry when you are criticized for that, you earned it. Outlooks like yours are the reason we have things like DF penalties and Need/Greed enforcement.

You lack empathy and are so focused on fulfilling your needs that you step on the people around you. Then when confronted about your behavior, you do things like blame the roulette system...

And you don't lack empathy for not understanding the tank's situation? That's why you're a hypocrite -- despite both sides being guilty of selfishness, you only see one side. The TC, for the purpose of farming his anima weapon, is ALSO STEPPING ON THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM. YOU JUST REFUSE TO SEE THAT.

And where? No one is telling me I can't? YOU HAVE LITERALLY TOLD ME THAT I CAN'T QUEUE.

If you dont want to do dungeons in the roulette, dont use the roulette.

In short, when you queue roulette, you consent to being available for any possible duty within that roulette.

THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS.

And I am not crying about being called selfish by some SJW. I have admitted the behavior is selfish yet you think I haven't. I am pointing out that the same selfishness also exists on the other side. I am pointing out the lunacy in someone claiming that because DF can't be what they want, that other people don't get to partake in the actual system.

And one final shot across the bow. SE has announced the rewards from ARF are tripling. I wonder why. Could it possibly be that they also acknowledge how stupid it is that the run is twice as long with far worse rewards than the alternatives? HMMMMMM.......................

[winsock]

Lawl, all caps?

This is your core problem. You are saying DF is something it is not. When you queue for a roulette, YOU STILL HAVE THE OPTION TO LEAVE WITH A 30 MINUTE PENALTY. THAT IS WHAT A ROULETTE IS.

In my quote I was using "roulette" literally, but I apologize for not making that clear. In other words, a game of chance where you dont know what you are going to get.

As it pertains to the actual in game roulette, who are you to define what it is?
When you look at how SE built the system, they imposed a "penalty" for leaving. Note that a "penalty" is a "punishment" that results from "breaking a rule". In other words by leaving your party, you "break a rule" SE made. Breaking rules, especially ones that negatively impact other people, is not generally considered to be socially acceptable. All I am saying is should you leave with a penalty, that action is considered selfish.

WHEN YOU DON'T QUEUE AS A TANK, YOU RUN THE RISK THAT YOU GET A "BAD" TANK. THE "BAD" TANK DIDN'T FORCE YOU TO TAKE THAT RISK. YOU MADE THAT DECISION. GET THAT INTO YOUR HEAD.[/B]

That does not absolve you from personal liability. If I schedule a meeting in real life that requires Person X to be there and Person X agrees to be there, I still run the risk of Person X not following through. However, Person X is still liable for not showing. He cant turn around and be like: "Well, whenever you schedule a meeting, you risk people not showing, so it's your fault I didn't show."

Do you believe people who take negative actions against other people should be held accountable for anything? Or in your opinion, are the negatively impacted people always the liable party for putting themselves in situation were they could be negatively impacted?

I am not liable for his decision to not queue as a tank himself. He took that risk.

While true, you are still liable for the action of abandoning your group.

Look at this problem both logically and realistically:
* SE imposed a "penalty" for leaving.
* A penalty is a punishment that results from break a rule
* When you leave a group, you receive a penalty because you are breaking a rule.
* It is generally considered socially unacceptable for someone to break rules that negatively impact other people.

You are accountable for your own actions. I would love to hear your next excuse as to why the system or your party members are actually the responsible parties.....

I am also a part of that party. So, when they force me to do something I don't want to do, they are negatively impacting part of the party.

They literally cannot do that. Tell me how anyone in your party can realistically force you to stay. They probably dont even know you are going to leave until you've already done it.

And you don't lack empathy for not understanding the tank's situation? That's why you're a hypocrite

The logic is bad because it supports both of our arguments.
For example, endless loop:
You to me: You are not empathizing with me; therefore, you have no right to criticize me.
Me to you: You are not empathizing with me; therefore, you have no right to criticize me.

I have admitted the behavior is selfish yet you think I haven't. I am pointing out that the same selfishness also exists on the other side.

You admit to the action, but take you no responsibility for it. You believe you are justified 'because' you believe that selfishness exists on the other side. However, see the above point for why your definition of selfishness is irrational.

And one final shot across the bow. SE has announced the rewards from ARF are tripling. I wonder why. Could it possibly be that they also acknowledge how stupid it is that the run is twice as long with far worse rewards than the alternatives? HMMMMMM.......................

Yep! However, this is not justification for leaving. You spin a roulette wheel and it lands on a prize of lesser value than the others. Regardless, you are the one who spun the wheel. You are the one chose to fill the 'Tank role' for the party. And you are the person who broke both your commitment and SE's established rule.

THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS.

Yep!

[HoodRat]

I once had two friends who were late to raid because they didn't want to leave early from an A3 group in df. They didn't want to leave because of the 30 minute penalty, but the group there was 6/8 premade and were purposely wiping to keep them there because one of them told the group to hurry because they had to get to raid. So according to Winsock, my friends were the guilty party because they would have gotten a 30 minute penalty for leaving. That is what I am understanding here. And since my friends couldn't kick anyone because it was 2 against 6, I suppose that means SE is perfectly fine with that behavior.

And I suppose I deserved every 30 minute penalty I got for leaving every group where it was blatantly obvious I was carrying everyone because my dps, as tank, would be higher than the healer's and both dps classes' combined.

[KeiranOlive]

I once had two friends who were late to raid because they didn't want to leave early from an A3 group in df. They didn't want to leave because of the 30 minute penalty, but the group there was 6/8 premade and were purposely wiping to keep them there because one of them told the group to hurry because they had to get to raid. So according to Winsock, my friends were the guilty party because they would have gotten a 30 minute penalty for leaving. That is what I am understanding here. And since my friends couldn't kick anyone because it was 2 against 6, I suppose that means SE is perfectly fine with that behavior.

Actually, I believe that would be considered harassment and can be reported.

[Zojha]

Actually, I believe that would be considered harassment and can be reported.

Yep! The hard part is proving they wiped on purpose and not just because they were bad.

Even if they did, though, one can still argue that two wrongs don't make a right. I suppose it's one of those cases where you have to decide whether you rather take a ticket for illegal parking or get late to your meeting because someone else is occupying your reserved spot and you need to make a detour to find another.

[Red_Wolf]

I once had two friends who were late to raid because they didn't want to leave early from an A3 group in df. They didn't want to leave because of the 30 minute penalty, but the group there was 6/8 premade and were purposely wiping to keep them there because one of them told the group to hurry because they had to get to raid. So according to Winsock, my friends were the guilty party because they would have gotten a 30 minute penalty for leaving. That is what I am understanding here. And since my friends couldn't kick anyone because it was 2 against 6, I suppose that means SE is perfectly fine with that behavior.

First off, your friends have poor time management skills and shouldn't keep their static waiting. That was selfish.

Second, your friends dictating to another premade that they need to hurry up would also be a little rude. It's unfair to assume this other premade's skill level was where they could just "hurry up". But who knows, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they asked nicely and gave reasons.

Third, if this other premade was actually wiping to prevent your friends from joining your raid, then no. Obviously no one would resent your friends for leaving a situation where they were being harassed and kept from completing the objective of the instance. However, that is a bold claim. If your friends really managed to upset 6 people to the point where they would ignore their own goals and just troll as long as possible, then I would seriously question how your friends were acting. I'm sure the other premade had better things to do. Or... maybe that was a lie and they were dealing with a progressing premade and put their extra attempts in this premade over your static's agreed upon start time.

[winsock]

I once had two friends who were late to raid because they didn't want to leave early from an A3 group in df. They didn't want to leave because of the 30 minute penalty, but the group there was 6/8 premade and were purposely wiping to keep them there because one of them told the group to hurry because they had to get to raid. So according to Winsock, my friends were the guilty party because they would have gotten a 30 minute penalty for leaving. That is what I am understanding here. And since my friends couldn't kick anyone because it was 2 against 6, I suppose that means SE is perfectly fine with that behavior.

And I suppose I deserved every 30 minute penalty I got for leaving every group where it was blatantly obvious I was carrying everyone because my dps, as tank, would be higher than the healer's and both dps classes' combined.

If possible, I would like convert the 2 examples you gave, into generic scenarios. You dont appear to have been a party member in the first scenario. I was not a party member in the first scenario. In order to ensure a debate focusing on the concepts of these examples, do you think the following example scenarios are built well enough to cover the concepts in your argument?:

You are assigned a group in the duty finder, and initially intend to complete it.
Scenario A: You believe that a duty is going to end in failure, because the group is "intentionally" taking action that promotes failure. (i.e. troll group)
Scenario B: You believe that a duty is going to end in "unintentional" failure, because the group does not have the skill to complete it. (i.e. poorly skilled players)

Your argument: In both scenarios, you would be justified in leaving

-------
I feel I may have misinterpreted your argument in the above and would like clarification on your reasoning as it would prove somewhat difficult to justify your actions for leaving both without contradicting yourself.

For example:
The main difference between these two scenarios is the intent of the rest of the party members. As such, how can you be justified in leaving 'both'?

You might argue that it is justified to leave in Scenario A because the group is trying to fail, and leaving promotes failure... but then in Scenario B, you would be promoting failure in a group trying to succeed.

You might argue that it is justified to leave in Scenario A because the group is intentionally trying to harm you... but then in Scenario B, you are the only one intentionally harming the group.

Could you elaborate on your reasoning?