What can I do to stop this?

[winsock]

This has gotten quite pathetic. I'll recap for you since you've resorted to such stupidity.

This is your logic you are calling stupid you realize...

You dont remember saying this?:

Everyone is in it for their own goals. My stance this entire time is that people will be selfish. The most you can do is hope that your goals align.
...
at the end of the day, if you want to express that selfishness, you are fully within your rights to do so. All I am saying is that the other party members are equally entitled to express their selfishness and kick you or drop the duty.

Or better yet:

I assume most people are queuing into dungeons for selfish reasons. It's probably pretty rare that someone is doing a dungeon run for no personal benefit.
....
for people to turn around and call other people self-centered despite having the same skew in motives is hypocritical. You're saying that you're entitled to your selfishness but they should sacrifice for the group.

You're calling selfishness for calling out selfishness... which the same logic employed in the "Paradox of Tolerance"

The problem with this is that I can also do the same thing... you're criticizing me for calling you out for behavior I dont agree with, but in doing so, you call me out for behavior you dont agree with. You have no leg to stand on. Notice you had no logical argument addressing this, just a childish "this is stupid" defense. You arent making a logical argument be cause you cant:
* If you defend this line of logic, then I have every right to criticize you.
* If you attack this logic, then your justification for leaving party would also be incorrect, and you are in the wrong for abandoning the group... which subjects you to criticism.

Please provide a logical argument if you dispute this, rather than your childish "This is stupid" defense. If you believe it to be stupid, prove why the logic is flawed. I should also reiterate that this is YOUR original logic... and yes, I agree it is stupid.

[Brian_]

Something isn't a straw man if people are actually saying it. In your second post you literally said that if someone can't accept your incorrect definition of a roulette, that they should not queue. Later on you said that people should enter roulette with the purpose of helping people and if they don't they might as well not queue. You are literally telling people how to play the game according to your ideals and still cry straw man when your crap gets called out. And, like I already pointed out, ideal is subjective. To me, your player behavior would never be ideal because you've chosen to play PLD and are fine with making dungeon runs slower than they have to be. But, do you see me on some high horse telling you to change your job or don't queue? No. I let you play the game you want to play.

And, just to prove a point.

I've done around 3000 dungeons. Even assuming I've left 1/6th of them -- which is probably WAY more than I've actually left, and assuming that it takes 15 minutes to requeue -- again, probably WAY longer as an average on my data-center, the math works out as such --

600 left dungeons, 3 other party members, 15 minute re-queue per person = 27000 total minutes wasted.

Now, assuming that I were like you and played predominantly PLD for whatever reason and didn't leave dungeons, the math works out as such --

3600 dungeons done, 3 other party members, runs are on average around 2-3 minutes longer (for simplicity, I will say 2.5 minutes) = 27000 total minutes wasted.

I would've wasted the exact same amount of my party-mate's time even with skewed leaver numbers.

But somehow I'm the one that has to change their behavior because I'm wasting the time of others.

[Jpec07]

Something isn't a straw man if people are actually saying it. In your second post you literally said that if someone can't accept your incorrect definition of a roulette, that they should not queue. Later on you said that people should enter roulette with the purpose of helping people and if they don't they might as well not queue. You are literally telling people how to play the game according to your ideals and still cry straw man when your crap gets called out. You are a joke.

You know what, you're right. My upbringing as a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant does give me a bit of a moral god complex, and it's a habitual for me to impose my ideals and morals on others (I know I annoyed the hell out of my high school friends with that crap). I like to think I've gotten better about it through the years, but it still creeps up on me when I least expect it--so thank you for prompting me to check myself.

I will stand by my statement, though: there is an enormous difference between saying "you should do this because this" and saying "do this because I said so." One defines the ought, the other is an order. It's fine to say what someone else had ought to do. That's basically the purpose of this entire forum. Everyone says what tanks ought to do in terms of gear, in terms of playstyle, etc., and it's the core of all of our discussion. But as you maintain, I agree that it is not okay to boss people around. I'm going to go ahead and edit notes into any post in this thread where my phrasing implied necessity, rather than suggested behavior.

[Lyth]

This discussion became quite philosophical, quite fast. It's simpler than you'd think.

We're tanks. Played well, we have the single biggest impact on group performance. 'Good' groups and 'bad' groups aside, some of us carry so hard that it doesn't really make a difference - we're always out faster than the average "optimal" group. The biggest time saver is skilled play, not waiting for the moon and the stars to align to get your "quick" clear. The only way to get there is to consistently throw yourself into situations where things aren't optimal: "impossible" in fact.

The other reason for time delays is that a lot of tanks just talk too much. There's very little that you can't effectively communicate to your teammates either physically through positioning, or by waymarks.

[Clansman2016]

Ok, I'll be honest that I didn't read every post here, but I do have one question. If there are dungeons that you really dislike, why not just queue for individual ones that you do like? Outside the daily bonus, is there a reason to use the roulette? I admit I'm still very new to the game, so I am legitimately curious.

[Ragology]

Ok, I'll be honest that I didn't read every post here, but I do have one question. If there are dungeons that you really dislike, why not just queue for individual ones that you do like? Outside the daily bonus, is there a reason to use the roulette? I admit I'm still very new to the game, so I am legitimately curious.

People may use it again to farm the "adventurer in need" bonus for the rewards ( since those don't have a daily limit.)

[Clansman2016]

People may use it again to farm the "adventurer in need" bonus for the rewards ( since those don't have a daily limit.)

Ah ok, thanks for the answer

[Brian_]

The basis of your statement is clearly wrong and that much is very clear from what I've said. That's why I call it stupidity. Because you clearly can't read.

I'm not calling people selfish for calling others selfish. I'm saying that in the TC's case, he was using DF for his own goals just like the tank that left. What you and many others are doing is criticizing one form of selfishness and go as far as telling someone to play the game according to your own rules while completely turning a blind eye to another form of selfishness.

I had a perfectly logical argument. It was that you are now completely misconstruing the original argument in your delusional attempt to claim I did something I never did. Just look at your post. You quoted me and then claimed I said something I didn't.

I'm not calling you selfish for calling out selfishness. I'm calling you a hypocrite for not acknowledging both sides of the coin.

Do you not see the selfishness in demanding that a tank stay in your group and finish a roulette no matter what or the hypocrisy in telling that tank how they should play the game while not making the same suggestion to a person in the TC's position?

Do you not see the false equivalency? If I leave a dungeon because of whatever reason, I am not telling you how to play the game. I am only going about my own business within the system. You are the only person here trying to tell other people how they should or shouldn't play the game. That's what I'm saying. When you flip the argument and make the claim that I shouldn't tell you what to do, I completely agree. I'm more than willing to just let everyone enjoy the game their own way. The problem is you aren't. Your default stance inherently demands others play by your rules. This is textbook SJW.

One last time, as clearly as I can possibly state it.

When I leave a dungeon for personal reasons, I am being selfish. I AM NOT telling other people they have no right to be selfish while being selfish myself.

When you tell someone not to queue for a roulette if they can't accept some made up rules, you are telling others how to play the game. YOU ARE telling other people that they shouldn't tell you how to act WHILE STILL telling other people how to act.

That's why you're a raging hypocrite and I am not.

[winsock]

Do you not see the selfishness in demanding that a tank stay in your group and finish a roulette no matter what...

^ the tank leaving is a selfish action.
You are saying it is selfish critize that selfish action.

My prior argument stands. You're calling selfishness for calling out selfishness.
* If you defend this line of logic, then I have every right to criticize you.
* If you attack this logic, then there is no hypocrisy, the tank is in the wrong and rightfully subject to critism

[Brian_]

No, your problem is you are removing my argument from the original context in an attempt to skew things in order to fit your narrative and self-righteous delusions. I specifically said what I did in response to the TC and similar situations. I pointed out that both sides, both the TC and the tank, were using DF for their own personal gain. As such, you can't really claim one side is right while the other is wrong. You decided to jump into the conversation to call one side wrong and selfish and then stated that if the tank can't accept your definition of DF, that they should not queue.

That is the origin of this argument and the basis for this discussion. If you can't understand that and want to continue in your delusions, maybe you should start your own thread because it's clearly unrelated to this thread.

As for another blatant case of false equivalency, no, the tank didn't force them to do anything. They both signed up for DF under the same conditions. Contrary to your delusions about what DF should be, DF FACTUALLY IS a match-making system that pairs either a preformed group or random people into a random dungeon with the option to leave with a 30 minute penalty. In other words, when the TC queued for DF, he accepted the possibility that his tank might leave and that he would have to requeue. He accepted the possibility that his group might not clear. The tank didn't force him to accept any of that. The tank also didn't force him not to queue as a tank himself or queue with a tank friend. He made the decision he did, took that risk, and paid the cost. The tank that left the roulette did the exact same thing. He made the decision to roll on the dungeon, took the risk of not getting something he wanted, and paid the cost -- a 30 minute lock-out. They did the same thing. You are the one trying to assume they did something different when both were just trying to play the game they wanted to. Both didn't get what they wanted and both paid a cost. You're the one here trying to tell people how they should play the game.

It's hilarious that somehow you are trying to argue I'm the intolerant one when you are the one that has stated that if we don't play by your rules, we shouldn't play at all. I'm saying we all play by our own rules and there is nothing you can do about it.