Recover HP/MP while standing still, out of battle, and enmity zeroed

[Viridiana]

No, I don't know the difference. Can you explain it to me?

Did you read my explanation of how complicated it is to assume what's going on behind the scenes in the game if incurrED is to be liberally read into? I think that's beyond the scope of the patch notes. Has it occurred to you that if the enmity system was that complicated they might have explained it in detail?

Okay, I'm going to use WoW as an example. In WoW, you can't (by default, unless it's changed since I quit) regain MP while casting. However, once you stop casting for five seconds, your natural regeneration kicks in again. Note that at this point you have cast (past tense), but are no longer casting (progressive tense).

To apply this to the patch notes, the notes say that you may regenerate MP while standing still, but may not regenerate while incurring enmity. Note that those are both progressive tenses. Meaning that once you've stopped (for however much time) regeneration will begin. If the amount of enmity you have is not changing, then you are not incurring enmity, you merely have incurred it.

Who are you kidding? This game is not comprised totally of elitists. Many healers have no clue what I even said about the difference between a Gladiator who has many classes leveled and otherwise. Do you think only elitists have a right to HAVE A SLOT in a raid party?

Has nothing to do with elitism, but that's a nice red herring. If a tank doesn't have Warmonger, Disorient, Taunt, Accomplice, Prime Conditioning, etc., I very seriously doubt he'd ever be able to tank effectively, no matter how many mages you throw at him.

[Neptune]

Okay, I'm going to use WoW as an example. In WoW, you can't (by default, unless it's changed since I quit) regain MP while casting. However, once you stop casting for five seconds, your natural regeneration kicks in again. Note that at this point you have cast (past tense), but are no longer casting (progressive tense).

To apply this to the patch notes, the notes say that you may regenerate MP while standing still, but may not regenerate while incurring enmity. Note that those are both progressive tenses. Meaning that once you've stopped (for however much time) regeneration will begin. If the amount of enmity you have is not changing, then you are not incurring enmity, you merely have incurred it.



Has nothing to do with elitism, but that's a nice red herring. If a tank doesn't have Warmonger, Disorient, Taunt, Accomplice, Prime Conditioning, etc., I very seriously doubt he'd ever be able to tank effectively, no matter how many mages you throw at him.

I was being sarcastic but I'm glad you posted that. Actually in WoW there is now "in-combat" regen, which is something like 1/3 of your other mana regen rate. You can adjust it with equipment and talents.

I'm guessing you didn't notice my response to NoctisUmbra. You're proposing that there is programming in the new patch to determine when you have been idle in incurring enmity. This is quite a leap. What we know of the enmity system is that it is accumulative, meaning values don't drop off and continue to accumulate for the duration of the fight. When you incur a high level of enmity the only way for it to go "down" is for someone else to go higher than you. So if you understand what I am saying there you will understand why I don't think there is a basis for thinking the game "keeps track" of how long it's been since you accumulated enmity during a fight.

In that last case, most healers don't even know what those abilities are. There are a lot of players that are very casual, especially considering the state of the game.

Bull****. Our LS regularly runs with 2-3 healers, and I still have to tell them to stop healing me (DPS) instead of the tank. Obviously you're exaggerating the hell out of the MP costs.

I'm really not exaggerating! Do you not believe that parties were formed with 5 healers based on healing 1 tank? Do a forum search for GLA CON ARC Darkhold and read what you find. I know it can be done with less healers and skilled players.. but we are not discussing that are we?

[Viridiana]

I was being sarcastic but I'm glad you posted that. Actually in WoW there is now "in-combat" regen, which is something like 1/3 of your other mana regen rate. You can adjust it with equipment and talents.

I'm guessing you didn't notice my response to NoctisUmbra. You're proposing that there is programming in the new patch to determine when you have been idle in incurring enmity. This is quite a leap. What we know of the enmity system is that it is accumulative, meaning values don't drop off and continue to accumulate for the duration of the fight. When you incur a high level of enmity the only way for it to go "down" is for someone else to go higher than you. So if you understand what I am saying there you will understand why I don't think there is a basis for thinking the game "keeps track" of how long it's been since you accumulated enmity during a fight.

In that last case, most healers don't even know what those abilities are. There are a lot of players that are very casual, especially considering the state of the game.



I'm really not exaggerating! Do you not believe that parties were formed with 5 healers based on healing 1 tank? Do a forum search for GLA CON ARC Darkhold and read what you find. I know it can be done with less healers and skilled players.. but we are not discussing that are we?

When I was still playing, there was no "default" regen within the five second rule, unless you had said gear or talents. May've changed since then, but whatever. . .

I saw your response to Noc, but I don't think it's. . . correct? Not quite sure what word to use there. I know that the timer used to exist, and it might still actually exist. For all we know, all they did was set the "Lower enmity by this value" number to 0. There'd be no way to tell the difference between that and a complete revamp to the system without seeing the actual coding. I'm not saying that's definitely how they did it, but I could easily see them re-purposing that function for this, even if it means re-introducing it.

Even if you find seven healers who know nothing about tanking, they'll notice real fast when the boss turns around and eats them, again and again, because the tank can't hold aggro. Or when the tank can't stay alive. Or when efforts to keep the tank alive result in the tank being the only one left alive. . .

Okay, edits:

I'm really not exaggerating! Do you not believe that parties were formed with 5 healers based on healing 1 tank? Do a forum search for GLA CON ARC Darkhold and read what you find. I know it can be done with less healers and skilled players.. but we are not discussing that are we?

You're saying that 4-5 healers was determined within hours of people getting there. This video was uploaded 3 days after the patch went live. It shows three healers, four archers, and a gladiator tank. You can't even really argue that this was a result of skill (no offense to those involved in the making of the video), because there's so much this group could have done better. Not even counting that they could have triggered drops on purpose, they never cast Stoneskin on the tank after the pull (from what I saw, anyway). They basically got through the fight because they had a resilient tank and a little bit of MP management. Heck, they even spent several hundred MP healing their DPS.

Not bashing the guys that made this video, but if they can take 3 healers in and heal not only the tank but also the DPS, with only one piece of dungeon gear among them (from what I can tell), without even doing everything they can to manage MP, then I have to wonder wth people were doing with 5 mages standing there. . .

[Neptune]

*Editing my post in response to your edit. Don't respond yet. :P*

lol.. ok.

4-5 healers in the run you pointed out earlier wasnt to cure 1 tank, it was to nuke and participate in BR, they were invited as long-range-DPS. Yes, i agree this has affected player behavior in a way or another (long range dps favor), but imo reducing MP cost again doesn't help this cause, other than making it easier.

It definitely doesn't help any of bad close range dps (the masses we're talking about) because mages will incurs enmity from curing them so much.

Oh, I have been talking about 4-5 this whole time, not from your video. It's just the general number that the community formed a consensus on within hours of the patch going up. Well, reducing the MP cost would make it easier, but it would ALSO allow more people to experience the content. That's really a moot point though because most people have stopped trying to beat Darkhold.

[Chardrizard]

Oh, I have been talking about 4-5 this whole time, not from your video. It's just the general number that the community formed a consensus on within hours of the patch going up. Well, reducing the MP cost would make it easier, but it would ALSO allow more people to experience the content. That's really a moot point though because most people have stopped trying to beat Darkhold.

I see your point but i still don't see how it would help getting those close-range DPS an invites. but, i will cut SE some slack because it is FFXIV's first real raid. Judging from the ifrit trailer, it doesn't seems to favor any class. It has long range directional, random mineblast, and huge range AoE that hits everyone, maybe that is better counter-measure for this issue ?